Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Betterbird: a fine-tuned version of Mozilla Thunderbird

betterbird.eu

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

61–70 of 241 posts

Re: Betterbird: a fine-tuned version of Mozilla Thunderbird

#61

Post by lucideer »

senko wrote: post #40
BeefWellington wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My guess was over something like this communication: https://web.archive.org/web/20220817182407/https://www.bette... Guy seems like a bit of a dick but I suppose after quite a few years trying to effect change in an org most people get that way.

If this is the worst, this speaks a lot more about the Thunderbird project leaders than about this person. I read this as a thoughtful, passionate, plea for project (governance) improvements. You can certainly disagree with him (I don't enough much about the project to judge either way, although his arguments ring true to my general software development instincts), but he was not attacking anyone or being a jerk.

Given this particular email is hosted on his own website it seems unlikely that it's "the worst".

On the other hand, the exact terminology used in the details of the ban here[0] do lean toward the less severe side of CoC violations. It seems likely that it was death-by-a-thousand-papercuts (frequent & persistent small violations coupled with an evident unwillingness to accept feedback), rather than one big blowout incident as is more often seen with such bans.

[0] https://www.betterbird.eu/faq/moz-governance.pdf

Re: Betterbird: a fine-tuned version of Mozilla Thunderbird

#62

Post by rtpg »

FeepingCreature wrote: post #37
kayson wrote: post #5

I really love Thunderbird; I've been using it for at least a decade now. There are definitely places where it still needs improvement, after years and years. While Betterbird seems exciting in theory, the attitude of the project leader (who it seems is a banned former contributor to Mozilla Thunderbird), and honestly even the arrogance in the name itself gives me pause. The issues laid out in this[0] email thread are…

The email reprinted in that PDF makes me irrationally angry to read. I hope there's an ebuild for Betterbird soon, because after reading that I'm not sure I want anything to do with Thunderbird anymore. Quote: > * No interaction with any of the people involved. This includes > o No interactions with Thunderbird community members, paid contributors, and Thunderbird Council members. > o No interactions in any official…

What would you propose as an alternative to people who just… constantly fill mailing lists with attacks on people or the like?

Reasonable people don’t need to have such harsh actions applied of course. But reasonable people don’t end up getting to this point!

I am a bit partial to messaging when someone is banned like this, but there are definitely cases where people will just keep on arguing about something forever and ever unless they are explicitly told to stop. And this is what that looks like, and I think is present in more or less every official OSS community

Maybe this should just look like “lose access to mailing list for a bit” stuff though

Re: Betterbird: a fine-tuned version of Mozilla Thunderbird

#63

Post by hollander »

pndy wrote: post #55
kayson wrote: post #5

I really love Thunderbird; I've been using it for at least a decade now. There are definitely places where it still needs improvement, after years and years. While Betterbird seems exciting in theory, the attitude of the project leader (who it seems is a banned former contributor to Mozilla Thunderbird), and honestly even the arrogance in the name itself gives me pause. The issues laid out in this[0] email thread are…

> honestly even the arrogance in the name itself gives me pause I don't see arrogance in the name, it's just bit cheesy and unappealing. But I guess it's hard to come with something both catchy and at the same telling it's Thunderbird beneath but with enhancements. Postbox which is also based on Thunderbird and comes with additional features, started as freeware in beta. After the stable release a 30-day trial was in…

Thunderflirt! ;-)

Re: Betterbird: a fine-tuned version of Mozilla Thunderbird

#64

Post by FeepingCreature »

rtpg wrote: post #62
FeepingCreature wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The email reprinted in that PDF makes me irrationally angry to read. I hope there's an ebuild for Betterbird soon, because after reading that I'm not sure I want anything to do with Thunderbird anymore. Quote: > * No interaction with any of the people involved. This includes > o No interactions with Thunderbird community members, paid contributors, and Thunderbird Council members. > o No interactions in any official…

What would you propose as an alternative to people who just… constantly fill mailing lists with attacks on people or the like? Reasonable people don’t need to have such harsh actions applied of course. But reasonable people don’t end up getting to this point! I am a bit partial to messaging when someone is banned like this, but there are definitely cases where people will just keep on arguing about something forever…

It's more the idea of an organization claiming they have the authority to forbid you from tweeting at members. It's like they're trying to split the world into two halves, organization members and outsiders, draw a fence around the organization membership and assume control over who is allowed to cross that fence and how. To be clear: I don't think any organization should ever have that sort of power. If it was just "banned from the ML" or whatever, I'd still be put off by the way the rest is phrased, but I'd be like "alright, that's fair enough, it's their ML." It is not their Twitter, and it is not, to be frank, "their community". You can own architecture, you can't own people.

What would be the optimal Code of Conduct? From looking at this and reading the FFmpeg mail thread, I'm currently leaning towards "Avoid talking about people." Just, try to avoid talking about people, period. If a technical forum comment contains no discussion of code, at least in theory, it's probably harmful to the project. As far as I can see, this also in the same stroke removes all potential for harassment.

Re: Betterbird: a fine-tuned version of Mozilla Thunderbird

#65

Post by mort96 »

rjzzleep wrote: post #57
runlevel1 wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Brilliant jerks almost always have a net negative impact on a project when you factor in their adverse effects on their teammates. The existence of a competing fork might be healthy, though. Having competition can make your priorities a lot clearer.

You mean like Linus or countless others did with Linux eh and a bunch of other world class open source projects? This is the lie people like you keep purporting in those VC money firehoses that have no grounds in the real world.

Well, Linus himself did think that his behavior was a big enough issue that he took serious steps to do something about it, and is now a completely different person in mailing lists.

But note that your parent comment said "almost always", not "always". The Linux project isn't exactly typical.

Re: Betterbird: a fine-tuned version of Mozilla Thunderbird

#66

Post by chrisseaton »

FeepingCreature wrote: post #37
kayson wrote: post #5

I really love Thunderbird; I've been using it for at least a decade now. There are definitely places where it still needs improvement, after years and years. While Betterbird seems exciting in theory, the attitude of the project leader (who it seems is a banned former contributor to Mozilla Thunderbird), and honestly even the arrogance in the name itself gives me pause. The issues laid out in this[0] email thread are…

The email reprinted in that PDF makes me irrationally angry to read. I hope there's an ebuild for Betterbird soon, because after reading that I'm not sure I want anything to do with Thunderbird anymore. Quote: > * No interaction with any of the people involved. This includes > o No interactions with Thunderbird community members, paid contributors, and Thunderbird Council members. > o No interactions in any official…

What else do you do with someone who is relentlessly rude?

Re: Betterbird: a fine-tuned version of Mozilla Thunderbird

#67

Post by FeepingCreature »

concinds wrote: post #19
kayson wrote: post #5

I really love Thunderbird; I've been using it for at least a decade now. There are definitely places where it still needs improvement, after years and years. While Betterbird seems exciting in theory, the attitude of the project leader (who it seems is a banned former contributor to Mozilla Thunderbird), and honestly even the arrogance in the name itself gives me pause. The issues laid out in this[0] email thread are…

The problem with open-source is that reaching responsibility or leadership positions requires as much office politics, or more, than normal corporate jobs. When a leader is incompetent, you can't talk to his boss, stirring up the community is the only way to cause change. But then you get accused of "lacking civility". Wikipedia is another example of this, where the Foundation is notorious for its flaws and for not c…

Our "making up for power differentials", their "abandoning civil behavior"... Not sure how I'd define the difference?

There's an approach I've seen some people take where they ask "how are we supposed to win without playing underhanded?" Well, maybe you aren't.

That's why the right to fork is sacred. Nobody can ever stop you from doing your own thing. It provides an escape hatch; no project disagreement is ever truly urgent, because the worst thing that can happen is that other people don't go along with what you want.

Re: Betterbird: a fine-tuned version of Mozilla Thunderbird

#68

Post by Tepix »

rjzzleep wrote: post #57
runlevel1 wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Brilliant jerks almost always have a net negative impact on a project when you factor in their adverse effects on their teammates. The existence of a competing fork might be healthy, though. Having competition can make your priorities a lot clearer.

You mean like Linus or countless others did with Linux eh and a bunch of other world class open source projects? This is the lie people like you keep purporting in those VC money firehoses that have no grounds in the real world.

Linux is doing well. We don't know how what would have happened if Linus hadn't frozen out several kernel contributors before working on himself.

I've seen the effect of a brilliant jerk first hand. People leave. I'm sure it's often a net negative.

Btw, calling this discussion a "lie" comes across as overly aggressive.

Re: Betterbird: a fine-tuned version of Mozilla Thunderbird

#69

Post by FeepingCreature »

chrisseaton wrote: post #66
FeepingCreature wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The email reprinted in that PDF makes me irrationally angry to read. I hope there's an ebuild for Betterbird soon, because after reading that I'm not sure I want anything to do with Thunderbird anymore. Quote: > * No interaction with any of the people involved. This includes > o No interactions with Thunderbird community members, paid contributors, and Thunderbird Council members. > o No interactions in any official…

What else do you do with someone who is relentlessly rude?

It's not that it's wrong (I wouldn't know, I haven't seen any evidence of rudeness, and the description of rudeness in the email seems really weak), it's that it assumes an unwarranted and overreaching position of authority.

Re: Betterbird: a fine-tuned version of Mozilla Thunderbird

#70

Post by lucideer »

A lot of debate in the comments here about whether they're comfortable supporting a project by a guy who's violated community terms. A few people asking what he was banned for but sofar I've seen no actual link to any context around the ban other than the select few emails he's published on his own website to defend his perspective (which seem quite light, as one would expect).

The tone of this project is extremely off-putting and not something I'd feel very comfortable supporting given my current ignorance of what happened here, but on the other hand Thunderbird has been infuriating every time I've tried it for exactly the reasons he states, it's been like that for what seems an eternity, and the Betterbird featuretable is impressive...

Post reply on HN