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Intelligence and radical economic attitudes

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Re: Intelligence and radical economic attitudes

#111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm sad that free markets are viewed as an "extreme" position.

When people buy apples it is considered absolutely normal that apples go bad and spoil over time. If your unit of measurement is a golden apple that never rots, then it is only natural that the return on a spoiling apple is negative. The moment people talk and think about money, they consider the mere concept of a negative return as some kind of monstrosity going against nature itself, despite the fact that money is…

>When people buy apples it is considered absolutely normal that apples go bad and spoil over time

If you don't eat it, yes.

>then it is only natural that the return on a spoiling apple is negative.

my return on the regular apple is 95 kcal. If I sell it, my return is what I sold it for. Why would I compare it to a golden apple that never spoils?

>The moment people talk and think about money, they consider the mere concept of a negative return as some kind of monstrosity going against nature itself

Can you point to some economists who hold this poition?

>despite the fact that money is a claim on labor and labor spoils just like an apple

Money can be a claim on labor. It can also be a claim on something else, but aside from that, it seems like you are comparing the negative return from the apple comapred to the golden apple to labor which gives an absolute negative return.

>The saver expects a reward for idleness

(I assume by "saver" you mean investor) Do you mean "expect" from a moral or economic perspective? either way it isn't true. An investor does not nessesarily expect a return on his investment. Either way what the saver expects does not matter.

>while the laborer without a job is getting punished by his enforced idleness.

If the saver instead was in some way obligated to reward the laborer despite providing a negative return then it would reduce the efficency of the total output. The number of laborers rewarded for providing a negative return would increase until there would be a total negative return. whether or not the laborer has no job depends on the ability of the laborer to provide a function that he is paid for. His idleness is forced by not returning any value. Even if he was rewarded for providing a negative return he would still be idle in an economic sense.

>Money without negative return obligates men to become golden statues that never age, a world view that is obviously in dissonance with nature and reality.

Fortunatly money itself can bring a negative return, both by faulty investment and by the devaluation of the money itself comlared to other assets (including other money)

>Whenever the economy isn't growing, people will prefer an asset that bears a 0% return at no risk over any real investment.

False, even when the economy isn't geowing, there is still money to be made by investment at an idividual level

>In other words, there is no such thing as a free market without a monetary reform that allows negative interest rates or simply allows money to expire, the same way people age

This conclusion does not follow your statements above. But money can already expire only not idividual notes but the entire value shrinks such that some of it has expired. For example, if the economy has 1,000 eggs and 1,000 jars of milk, and 1,000,000 dollars and 10 eggs spoil then the value of the 1,000,000 dollars has shrunk by 10 eggs worth.

>Here is another problem, eternal private landownership has the same problem

can you site any examples of land that has been held privatley from the time it was first held until now?

>At a zero interest rate its value is infinite

it isn't infinite because that land takes an infinite amount of time to return an infinite value which is not possible. (compared to investing many other ventures it produces a negative return. Like the apple case except it does not expire).

>What's worth more? Money that works according to supply or demand or land that doesn't? Of course people are going to pick land

Real estate acounts for a large percentage of GDP in the US. But money is a liquid asset, land is not. Banks do not to forclose on houses from the first moment they can because then they have to sell them. But if they wait until the borrower gives them money they don't need to sell anything.

>If landownership was eternal, then owning all of the land on the planet is equivalent to turning everyone else into illegal aliens that merely have been granted permission to exist on the planet and whose permission can be withdrawn at any time.

Can you expound on this point?

>In the face of these two forces there cannot be something like a free market. It would always be a coercive market in one form or another.

There can never be a completly free market but there can be something like a free market.

>It would always be a coercive market in one form or another.

coercive in the sense that people will do things they don't want to such as working.

Re: Intelligence and radical economic attitudes

#112
post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a good point. Additionally, IQ measures a very specific type of cognitive ability. I am not so sure that those cognitive abilities are perfectly correlated with the sort of social and emotional intelligence required to assess the likely effectiveness of a political system.

If only there were half a century of research into exactly what IQ does and doesn't correlate with! Anyhow, my lukewarm take is that no level of "social and emotional intelligence" will allow you to assess the likely effectiveness of a political system, because why in the world would the built-in intelligence for interacting with a couple of hundred people be any good at predicting the aggregate behaviour of billions…

High IQ with low EQ, whatever they are, is someone who thinks "feed the homeless to the hungry" is an elegant solution to an irritating problem and is baffled why we haven't done it yet.

We don't need to rigorously quantify the cause to notice an effect, whatever it turns out to be.

Re: Intelligence and radical economic attitudes

#113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm sad that free markets are viewed as an "extreme" position.

When people buy apples it is considered absolutely normal that apples go bad and spoil over time. If your unit of measurement is a golden apple that never rots, then it is only natural that the return on a spoiling apple is negative. The moment people talk and think about money, they consider the mere concept of a negative return as some kind of monstrosity going against nature itself, despite the fact that money is…

Your first section seems to be a reformulation of the Labor Theory of Value, which has been thoroughly discredited.

The second seems to think that all value derives from land (never mind that the value of FAANG companies has nothing to do with land value). But hey let's run with that for a minute. Suppose one person owned all the land. In order to get any value from it, he's going to have to rent it out to people who do use it productively.

Hmm, where do we have such a system. I know! The government owns all the land, and rents it out (property taxes) to people who use it. The free market hasn't collapsed because of this.

Re: Intelligence and radical economic attitudes

#114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> tradgedy of the commons, Communal ownership is not free market, hence the tragedy of the commons is not a failure of the free market. > ability of a large participant to drop prices to eliminate competition then raise prices, Has never happened successfully. > inability of market forces to handle extreme tail risk like major natural disasters. The free market does very well at rushing supplies into disaster areas.…

>> ability of a large participant to drop prices to eliminate competition then raise prices, > Has never happened successfully. I thought ISPs were notorious for temporarily dropping prices whenever a competitor tries to build out? Or at least I keep hearing anecdotes from people who think they've watched it happen.

ISPs are often granted franchise monopoly powers.

Re: Intelligence and radical economic attitudes

#115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Those things are often suddenly rare because people hoard them, which can be prevented by allowing supply and demand to properly work. Prices should go up if goods are in more demand. In addition, the higher prices will motivate sellers to send more products to the impacted area. That eventually leads to price stabilization at the intersection of the supply and demand curve, i.e. how things are supposed to work. Do t…

I don't need you to explain price theory to me, and also don't find your hoarding argument persuasive, for two reasons: one, much of the demand in the aftermath of a disaster is from people who need to consume a commodity and can't get any, and two, the hoarding behavior you describe is more likely to be by price gougers hoping to engage in arbitrage. > But if you artificially suppress prices, there will also be some…

Hoarding toilet paper is only of value if you can resell it. Hence the total amount available remains the same.

If hoarding fetches higher prices, that creates tremendous incentive to increase the supply (and/or find alternatives).

If hoarding is illegal, and gouging is illegal, the result is shortages. Every time, since there is zero incentive to produce more.

Rationing has other problems. It is based on the idea that everyone has the exact same need for the product. Of course, this is absurd. The result is misallocation, as some get more than they need, others get less. If reselling is made illegal (as it usually is in rationing setups), then the person with extra just throws it away, and the person who doesn't get enough has to do without.

How is that better?

Re: Intelligence and radical economic attitudes

#116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Regulations? You mean the same mechanism ISPs, food companies, "sin taxable" companies, etc use to capture entire segments of the market and price fix their way to a billion dollar profit? Or the regulations that nearly sank Tesla in the cradle that existed for no reason other than politicians are as corrupt, if not more, than the worst CEOs? 99.9% of the time regulation is unnecessary. Over-regulation is a huge prob…

If you didn’t have regulations you wouldn’t be able to consume or produce any modern product. It’s not worth making electronics if your users all have randomly shaped random voltage power sockets installed by whoever built their house, uncontrolled RF emissions, and want to pay you in private bank currencies you can’t spend. This is an example of the article - libertarianism requires people to replace how things actu…

> It’s not worth making electronics if your users all have randomly shaped random voltage power sockets installed by whoever built their house,

And yet nearly all electronics standards arose through voluntary cooperation. Ever notice the USB socket on your computer? The audio jack? The HDMI port? etc. Did you know that Edison standardized the Edison lightbulb socket, not the government?

> uncontrolled RF emissions,

Again, the free market does not allow one to interfere with other peoples' property.

> and want to pay you in private bank currencies you can’t spend.

Banks solved that problem long ago. The free banking system worked. BTW, we still mostly use PRIVATE BANK CURRENCIES all the time! Amazing, but true. They're called credit cards, bank checks, paypal, venmo, wire transfers, money orders, cashier's checks, etc. Even store coupons are private currency.

> libertarianism requires people to replace how things actually work with brief inaccurate summaries of how it works they fit in their heads, and the smarter you are the more incorrect information you can fit in your head and the more wrong you are.

Have fun debating with me. Good luck!

Re: Intelligence and radical economic attitudes

#117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you didn’t have regulations you wouldn’t be able to consume or produce any modern product. It’s not worth making electronics if your users all have randomly shaped random voltage power sockets installed by whoever built their house, uncontrolled RF emissions, and want to pay you in private bank currencies you can’t spend. This is an example of the article - libertarianism requires people to replace how things actu…

> It’s not worth making electronics if your users all have randomly shaped random voltage power sockets installed by whoever built their house, And yet nearly all electronics standards arose through voluntary cooperation. Ever notice the USB socket on your computer? The audio jack? The HDMI port? etc. Did you know that Edison standardized the Edison lightbulb socket, not the government? > uncontrolled RF emissions, A…

[deleted]

Re: Intelligence and radical economic attitudes

#118
post #112
post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If only there were half a century of research into exactly what IQ does and doesn't correlate with! Anyhow, my lukewarm take is that no level of "social and emotional intelligence" will allow you to assess the likely effectiveness of a political system, because why in the world would the built-in intelligence for interacting with a couple of hundred people be any good at predicting the aggregate behaviour of billions…

High IQ with low EQ, whatever they are, is someone who thinks "feed the homeless to the hungry" is an elegant solution to an irritating problem and is baffled why we haven't done it yet. We don't need to rigorously quantify the cause to notice an effect, whatever it turns out to be.

Yes, you need a very high EQ to understand why that wouldn't work./s

Re: Intelligence and radical economic attitudes

#119
post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a good point. Additionally, IQ measures a very specific type of cognitive ability. I am not so sure that those cognitive abilities are perfectly correlated with the sort of social and emotional intelligence required to assess the likely effectiveness of a political system.

If only there were half a century of research into exactly what IQ does and doesn't correlate with! Anyhow, my lukewarm take is that no level of "social and emotional intelligence" will allow you to assess the likely effectiveness of a political system, because why in the world would the built-in intelligence for interacting with a couple of hundred people be any good at predicting the aggregate behaviour of billions…

I'm very curious to what that research looks like. The only IQ-Tests I know of are the ones alike to the Mensa Online Tests, and maybe my IQ is too low (rimshot) but I can't fathom it being anything other than an indicator on how well someone can solve these matrix association problems.

Since you seem knowledgeable in it, what would be a rigid definition of IQ? As opposed to the vague definition of social intelligence?

Re: Intelligence and radical economic attitudes

#120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would say (it has been a while), the common complaint that I've heard is the tests for IQ are not standardized - there are a million snake-oil pitches for free and paid online IQ tests - or that the real tests have a bunch of cultural bias that might skew the results... Or that IQ is inadequate as a measure of general intelligence (if IQ measures pattern matching effectively and it misses other kinds of reasoning e…

There are certainly a lot of valid complaints about IQ. The lack of standardization is obviously a problem, and the cultural understanding of it is severely lacking. But study after study have shown that IQ is highly correlated with financial success, and at this point the confounders have been controlled well enough to say it’s hard for me to deny that pattern recognition, which is what well made iq tests measure, i…

I am not sure what is defined as "financial success," since it appears to be something one can be born into regardless of IQ.

In regards to income, I briefly skimmed the Wikipedia section for IQ and Income, which can be found here:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intelligence_quotient#Income

"Highly correlated" would not be the choice of words I use to describe correlations between (0.23 - 0.5).

We, as people, should cherish the contributions of one's intelligence instead of obsessing over an arbitrary, qualitative value painted as a qualitative value like one's potential intelligence.

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