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I accidentally started a movement – Policing the Police by scraping court data

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Re: I accidentally started a movement – Policing the Police by scraping court data

#161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because when you have your target as zero then when you don't hit zero you push for ever more costly and suboptimal policy to achieve your goal. This is a problem both in that the incremental policy changes are highly unlikely to provide a larger benefit than their incremental costs and because it draws resources away from tackling problems that probably have a larger societal impact and smaller costs to achieve thos…

That makes no sense and I'd be interested in examples supporting it that are not some person on the fringe shouting opinions. What should the goal of the police department regarding killing innocent people? Should they aim for a dozen per quarter? Per-capita weighted? Incremental changes have been hard because it gets down to the police policing themselves, and that has shown to be a failure. Again, one of the "simpl…

That you think it makes no sense means you do not understand statistics or cost/benefit analysis. There are tons of examples. People killed by drunk drivers, pedestrian road deaths, illegal drug usage in society, etc. Innocent people killed by cops is a bad measure because, by definition, pretty much all the people cops kill are innocent because almost all of them have not been found guilty by a jury of their peers for whatever the cops are trying to apprehend them for and are by definition innocent. The target for cops proven to have violated relevant policy related directly to the killing of a person should be zero but there is a non zero number of people killed by police each year society should be fine with. Even the target I said should be zero above should only be zero if the regulations pertaining to that are clear and concise enough to be easily understood and adhered to by police, otherwise situations where lethal force are justified will get tripped up on marginally relevant grounds because the probability the average police officer fails to follow some procedure increases with the number of procedures required.

All of these things have a pattern in common where the majority of the improvement can be had reasonably cheaply and capturing the last small improvement has huge costs that are usually much more costly than the benefit of eliminating the last bit and the population of potential events is huge. Road deaths are an illustrative example. Adding speed limits, traffic lights, crosswalks, moderate enforcement, etc. all dropped road deaths precipitously in the USA. If the USA changes its model from cars first to people first there are still some moderately costly infrastructure changes they could make to get their numbers down to Netherlands levels, which are still not zero. Beyond that you are left with hugely costly heavy enforcement among steadily more dystopian and invasive methods that will likely improve the number but not get it all the way to zero. It is really unlikley that these last improvements cost less than the benefit they incur between the direct cost of implementation and the negative effects on the total population of driving events.

On top of all this all those large costs you are incurring for very small gains come at the expense of being able to spend those limited resources on other things that likely have better cost to improvement ratios. You are foregoing a larger decrease in something else bad for society for small decreases in your target. In the road deaths example above that final small drop in road deaths might be coming at the cost of large drops in crime if you deployed those police there instead of on road deaths, as an example.

Re: I accidentally started a movement – Policing the Police by scraping court data

#162

Also relevant: So far this year, 177 LEO officers have died in the line of duty. Our gratitude should go to all. https://www.odmp.org/search/year/2022

Policing is not even in the "Top 10" most dangerous jobs in the country. Most of the people on your list died of COVID or car accidents.

[deleted]

Re: I accidentally started a movement – Policing the Police by scraping court data

#163

You might try defining what the "ideal" department's data would look like: what categories of data, what columns each record has, what the values are for each, etc. Ideally you'd stamp it with a year and give it a spiffy name so it could be the National Police Data Reporting Standard 2022 (NPDRS.2022) or something. Departments that are trying to be transparent (or who just don't want to deal with figuring it all out…

this is a great idea. activists could then use the ideal standard & pressure departments into achieving "NPDRS Transparency" or something

Re: I accidentally started a movement – Policing the Police by scraping court data

#164
post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Depends on what the data shows. For instance, nobody ever wants to talk about why 95% of those killed in police shootings are males. It's far more disproportionate than any of the race based numbers that make headlines daily, and yet..nothing. This seems to indicate the data will always and only be used to tell a preferred narrative.

...because there's a plausible and uncontested rationale, unlike skin color? Men generally have more testosterone, which leads to aggression and worse impulse control. Nobody's talking about the reason men are 95% of police shootings because it's pretty obvious.

You're right that men are far more likely to be involved in violent incidents which are likely to lead to potentially violent confrontations with police. You're also right that this difference largely explains the disparity in the percentage of people shot by police by gender.

I guess the question is why people don't think that correlation holds true by race (or culture) as well. The percentages match up. For instance, white males (and black males and hispanic males) are actually over-represented as demographic cohorts who are victims of police shootings, whereas asian males and women of all races are under-represented. This tracks exactly with violent crime rates.

Perhaps we should address this a gender problem more than a racial problem. At least, that's what the data tells us.

Re: I accidentally started a movement – Policing the Police by scraping court data

#165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your question makes sense. I’ve addressed this elsewhere but I’m currently just answering on my phone so I’ll summarize by saying that our focus is on complete, solid local data one municipality at a time (full context is really helpful when actually using the data) as opposed to any particular type of data. That said, we still have work to do pointing people in this direction and helping them understand why. This wh…

Thanks for responding! What is complete data? Arrests by time and geolocation? Quarterly stats by call or response? I have gone through some of the public info for my department so I am curious.

Again, it seems to me that they if police are publishing data, they want to make it accessible.

Are police publishing arrests by time and geolocation? Quarterly stats by call or response? Then yes.

Hell, I'm sure if they are publishing coffee consumption numbers, that would go up as well.

Re: I accidentally started a movement – Policing the Police by scraping court data

#166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> That's also when I learned that many people don't want to listen to statistics unless they agree with their own preconceptions. This has been my experience with bodycam footage, I've found that there's been quite a few heavily protested police involved shootings that when looking over the footage and the facts of the situation, were by the book and completely justified, yet no matter how many times you say to someo…

The PoliceActivity youtube channel is interesting for this. https://www.youtube.com/c/PoliceActivity/videos (For most of the videos, which show people dying, you must be logged into a youtube account to pass the "violent content" prompt) Maybe 9 out of 10 videos are "good kills". Officer says something like "hey, stop committing a crime", the suspect says something along the lines of "fuck you pig!", pulls a gun, and…

> They don't want the rate to be low, they want it to be zero

As someone that cannot even vote in the US (and is therefore neither red nor blue) - that seems _eminently fucking reasonable_. This kind of thing just does not happen in the UK.

I'd wager there have been fewer police killings (let along just shootings) in the past two decades in the UK than just this weekend in the US.

For anyone that actually believes in small, limited government, the idea that government agents can wander around shooting effectively at will is so ridiculous that anyone claiming to be "red team" should hang their heads in shame.

Re: I accidentally started a movement – Policing the Police by scraping court data

#167
post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I also have inmate scrapers running (and republishing the data on a better website). Mine apply to any county using a specific software. They're not cleaned up and ready for release, but I could do that if it's useful to the project. At least a few more counties in my state use the same software.

Interesting, what are you using them for? Most of our scrapers are written by inexperienced volunteers so this is probably still quite valuable as is. If it works, we’ll take it. You could also raise a hand as a human data source; perhaps one day someone will be looking for jail data from these counties and you could offer up some way to contact you. I gave my contact info to the person you replied to. Use it if you…

The software that my county uses is very poor for just seeing who got arrested. The only view is a "live roster" at the county jail, where they process all arrests. Some people are released very quickly.

I have it republishing on a very basic site with an easier way to view the arrests.

The software I'm scraping is called "Justice Solutions" (findtheinmate.com) and it looks like it was built without any knowledge of design OR usability.

Re: I accidentally started a movement – Policing the Police by scraping court data

#168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not in the U.S so I might be ignorant, but wouldn't it be fair to collect positive data too, and not just misconducts?

What would that look like?

Uhh like how many murder cases got solved, how many drunk drivers had their driving licenses revoked, how many speeding tickets went through, how many stolen cars and goods found its original owner, how many pickpocket thieves, shoplifters, bulglar cases got investigated, you know ... Stuff police exist for?

Re: I accidentally started a movement – Policing the Police by scraping court data

#169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thanks for responding! What is complete data? Arrests by time and geolocation? Quarterly stats by call or response? I have gone through some of the public info for my department so I am curious.

Again, it seems to me that they if police are publishing data, they want to make it accessible. Are police publishing arrests by time and geolocation? Quarterly stats by call or response? Then yes. Hell, I'm sure if they are publishing coffee consumption numbers, that would go up as well.

>Are police publishing arrests by time and geolocation? Quarterly stats by call or response? Then yes.

I obviously don't know, and neither do you.

I don't know why you feel the need to weigh in on my question with unhelpful non-answers.

Re: I accidentally started a movement – Policing the Police by scraping court data

#170

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That makes no sense and I'd be interested in examples supporting it that are not some person on the fringe shouting opinions. What should the goal of the police department regarding killing innocent people? Should they aim for a dozen per quarter? Per-capita weighted? Incremental changes have been hard because it gets down to the police policing themselves, and that has shown to be a failure. Again, one of the "simpl…

That you think it makes no sense means you do not understand statistics or cost/benefit analysis. There are tons of examples. People killed by drunk drivers, pedestrian road deaths, illegal drug usage in society, etc. Innocent people killed by cops is a bad measure because, by definition, pretty much all the people cops kill are innocent because almost all of them have not been found guilty by a jury of their peers f…

> That you think it makes no sense means you do not understand statistics or cost/benefit analysis

Maybe your writing was not clear enough, m'kay?

And now you play word games with my intent. I did not advocate for extreme measures -- simply to have clear targets of and rules of engagement; to identify workable solutions.

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