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America’s Open Wound

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Re: America’s Open Wound

#31

Post by canjobear »

hunglee2 wrote: post #3

it is not clear what could be done should an intelligence agency turn rogue, and become operationally independent from the government. It's basically a non-democratic power centre which - because it is not subject to elections - will always outlast any politician, and because of the nature of the work, has vast powers of direct and indirect influence. Good job that this is not the case in the US

Is CIA rogue? Many of the morally upsetting acts documented here (killing an 8 year old girl, spying on the American people) seem to have been ordered by officials in the elected government.

Re: America’s Open Wound

#32

Post by jobs_throwaway »

zug_zug wrote: post #28
rendall wrote: post #2

Did any American read this without alarm? If so, why not?

Well I think this article does a good job of saying CIA has done some crazy stuff. But then it goes from there to -> so let's get rid of it, which to me seems like potentially a much scarier proposition. It's not clear to me exactly how real the threat of foreign countries trying to tamper with our elections is, but if this is what the CIA does, I think it's probably naive to think no other nation would try things li…

>8-year-old girls shouldn't be assassinated, but in the scope of things, that's not a reason to get rid of an entire agency.

Really? That seems exactly like the kind of thing that should get an agency canned, especially because its not an aberration. In fact, I'd say virtually any other agency that did so would be canned in short order. Why doesn't the CIA have to play by the same rules as everyone else? Especially when those rules are as basic as 'don't murder American children'.

Re: America’s Open Wound

#33

Post by CommieBobDole »

roenxi wrote: post #13

I have to ask, because I know that Biden was said to give a speech with bad optics but I never looked it up seriously - is that photo doctored?^W^W^W I just googled it myself. Whoever is doing his PR needs to be sacked for leaving him open to a photo like that.

The building was lit up in red, white and blue, and whoever took/published the photo either chose their angle or cropped it for dramatic effect.

But yeah, I assume there's someone whose job is to avoid things like this who wasn't doing their job very well.

https://www.inquirer.com/news/philadelphia-joe-biden-picture...

Re: America’s Open Wound

#35

Post by tarakat »

mellavora wrote: post #10
anon291 wrote: post #4

We have known for many years the CIA is awful. Get rid of it. We can achieve national security goals via alternate means. It's probably going to get me banned, but we know they interfere in foreign elections. Why is it such a long shot to believe they don't interfere locally?

> Why is it such a long shot to believe they don't interfere locally? Because this goes strongly against the culture of the organization? People are funny. They may be willing to bend any law and/or see themselves as above the law in some aspects (see i.e. the Iran/contra affair), yet will honor-bind themselves to other ways. Because at the end of the day they want to be the heros, the good guys. And the C.I.A. is an…

> Why is it such a long shot to believe they don't interfere locally?

> Because this goes strongly against the culture of the organization?

No it doesn't, and I'm curious where you got that impression:

A Brief History of the CIA's Unpunished Spying on the Senate - https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2014/12/a-brief...

Through these programs, the CIA's Office of Security received information from US based informants regarding individuals and groups with anti-war views. [..] According to a 1977 New York Times article, the CIA conducted a covert propaganda campaign to squelch criticism of the Warren Report. The CIA urged its field stations to use their "propaganda assets" to attack those who didn't agree with the Warren Report. - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CIA_activities_in_the_United_S...

In 1975, Church Committee Congressional investigations revealed Agency connections with journalists and civic groups. - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Mockingbird

At various times, under its own initiative or in accordance with directives from the President of the United States or the National Security Council staff, the Central Intelligence Agency (CIA) has attempted to influence public opinion both in the United States and abroad. [..] Ralph McGehee, a former CIA officer, stated that the CIA often placed news stories anonymously in news publications to spread false ideas favorable to CIA goals. - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CIA_influence_on_public_opinio...

And that's only what we know about.

Re: America’s Open Wound

#36

Post by Vecr »

roenxi wrote: post #13

I have to ask, because I know that Biden was said to give a speech with bad optics but I never looked it up seriously - is that photo doctored?^W^W^W I just googled it myself. Whoever is doing his PR needs to be sacked for leaving him open to a photo like that.

Apparently it was supposed to be the white and red stripes of the US flag, and Biden just so happened to stand in front of the red part. That's probably the real explanation, but why are there marines standing behind him in frame like that? Why did he have both of his clenched fists raised? Why did his Twitter account (his office's account really, probably run by a staffer) just tweet the single word "democracy" (not even any quotes in the tweet, just one wholly lowercase word) at about the same time? With the whole "Dark Brandon" meme going around at the same time (originating from some Chinese propaganda trying to make Biden look bad, but glowing yellow eyes and a throne made from M16 rifles isn't going to make you look too bad in the US at this point), the coincidence is a bit weird.

Re: America’s Open Wound

#37

Post by mmcdermott »

anon291 wrote: post #4

We have known for many years the CIA is awful. Get rid of it. We can achieve national security goals via alternate means. It's probably going to get me banned, but we know they interfere in foreign elections. Why is it such a long shot to believe they don't interfere locally?

It isn't immediately clear to me that you could run a modern state without some sort of intelligence apparatus. If anything, Israel is a case study of intelligence being a great equalizer for smaller states.

That doesn't excuse abuses or allow for their overreaches, which very much need to be addressed.

Re: America’s Open Wound

#38

Post by LinuxBender »

anon291 wrote: post #4

We have known for many years the CIA is awful. Get rid of it. We can achieve national security goals via alternate means. It's probably going to get me banned, but we know they interfere in foreign elections. Why is it such a long shot to believe they don't interfere locally?

Get rid of it.

I can't speak for the CIA but I can offer my armchair-commander opinion. I could imagine they might support your idea so to speak. Get rid of the existing agency and all the existing bureaucracy limiting their actions would be gone. All the negative history is left to Wikipedia. A new agency and thus a new sharp end of the stick would pop up in its place and they would migrate over their trusted cohorts and undisclosed funds. I think it would be viewed as a re-organization and they could cut all the dead weight, debt, etc...

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