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Magnus Carlsen resigns against Hans Niemann after one move

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Re: Magnus Carlsen resigns against Hans Niemann after one move

#281

Post by walnutclosefarm »

ramraj07 wrote: post #4
tibbar wrote: post #2

For context, Magnus withdrew from a major tournament last month after losing to Hans. He has not made a statement, but it is understood that he suspects Hans of cheating. Hans has admitted to cheating online, though he denies cheating in person. As more evidence comes out, it seems that Hans has cheated a lot more than he admitted, and potentially over the board as well (for example, this analysis [1] shows that he's…

As someone who’s never been able to appreciate or follow sports where a machine can be an order of magnitude better than a human, I would genuinely like to understand why people are enamored about such sports. In the end it seems like brilliant minds lost in math that’s not even novel anymore.. again everyone should do what they please, but this is just an academic question from someone unable to appreciate such skil…

I think competitive sports are and always have been about competition between humans, and I don't believe that the ability of a machine to play chess better than any human changes that, any more than the fact that, say, a hare can outsprint a human, or a horse outrun one in any middle distance, makes foot racing intrinsically uninteresting.

In addition, humans enjoy playing games, and I think this extends to watching or following other humans who are better at it as a vicarious means of participating. A Saturday poker game with your crew is not diminished by the fact that everyone in the game would be slaughtered in a professional tournament, nor is the fun of watching said tournament diminished by that knowledge. I can enjoy a game of flag football with my family, and still enjoy an NFL Monday Night game, even though no one in my family would last 2 plays in the latter.

Re: Magnus Carlsen resigns against Hans Niemann after one move

#282

Post by vintermann »

tromp wrote: post #262
vintermann wrote: post #246

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In Go, (and in competitive Starcraft, I've noticed) they talk about "overplay", making a move that's trying to claim too much, biting over more than you should be able to chew. And if you spot it, and are good enough, you can "punish" an overplay. If you are playing with a handicap, you have to make overplays, and hope your opponent can't punish them. As the weaker player in a handicap game you know this, but you fac…

> If you are playing with a handicap, you have to make overplays Some players may feel they have to, but others manage to refrain from making overplays, and just keep playing moves they consider objectively best, patiently waiting for their weaker opponent to make big mistakes. Usually such patience does get rewarded.

For small handicaps, maybe you can see it that way. But it's harder to call a move "objectively best" when you're technically in a dead lost position.

Re: Magnus Carlsen resigns against Hans Niemann after one move

#283

Post by rglullis »

Macha wrote: post #224
rglullis wrote: post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Entertainment works as an answer of why we do it, but not the question I made, which is why/whether we should .

This is only a distinction if you consider entertainment without value

Not really. I am questioning "sports following as entertainment", not entertainment in general.

Re: Magnus Carlsen resigns against Hans Niemann after one move

#284

Post by LeChuck »

Ekaros wrote: post #71
6nf wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Chess.com put out a statement refuting Hans' claims that he only cheated twice and Hans has not responded yet.

Then again I would put less than zero credibility to entity that has financial investment on the accuser in this case. Ofc, they will tow that line.

You're saying Hans only cheated twice, and chess.com is falsy accusing him of cheating more often than that because they're working on a takeover of Magnus' company?

That's straying pretty far into conspiracy theory territory.

Re: Magnus Carlsen resigns against Hans Niemann after one move

#285

Post by [deleted] »

mach1ne wrote: post #247
EGreg wrote: post #234

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One opening move can’t possibly confirm cheating since the opening moves played by the best chess engines are also the same moves played by the vast majority of human players.

But if there is no obviously desirable move, and instead a wide array of potential equally good moves, then picking the same as the computer picked gives a high probability of cheating. That being said, I find it unlikely that that's the case here.

[deleted]

Re: Magnus Carlsen resigns against Hans Niemann after one move

#286

Post by nso »

kamaal wrote: post #231
kurupt213 wrote: post #227

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So why even begin the match? The story would hold a lot more water if he boycotts from the outset

Just a guess may be Carlsen set the whole thing up. Like make a move and see if the opponent makes a move that could only be recommended by a chess engine. Do it in your preparation time and see this. Like in your preparation you make an opening move and see what move the engine makes in response. Now do this in your live game and see if the opponent made the very same move. If they do, this confirms cheating. In thi…

Niemann had moved one piece. There were exactly 24 possible moves he could have made. Being in line with "the engine" would have been easy.

I dont know if he is cheating. Evidence is not clear. My theory is one of two things.

1) Carlsen doesn't want to play with anyone that has ever cheated. Fair enough. But be more vocal about it.

Pet theory 2) Carlsen is on tilt. We could be seeing a shift in play style, like we have several times with poker. GTO came on the scene and suddenly the whole game changed, and those on the top many times found themselves unable to deal with how the newer players were approaching the game.

Re: Magnus Carlsen resigns against Hans Niemann after one move

#287

Post by Ekaros »

LeChuck wrote: post #284
Ekaros wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Then again I would put less than zero credibility to entity that has financial investment on the accuser in this case. Ofc, they will tow that line.

You're saying Hans only cheated twice, and chess.com is falsy accusing him of cheating more often than that because they're working on a takeover of Magnus' company? That's straying pretty far into conspiracy theory territory.

I think they were probably pressured by Magnus who out of malice after losing a game is targeting promising player... Which I think is entirely reasonable reading of situation after seeing actions take by a player.

Re: Magnus Carlsen resigns against Hans Niemann after one move

#288

Post by me_me_me »

addicted wrote: post #117
wheresmycraisin wrote: post #99

Magnus Carlsen has basically been a model champion for close to a decade now. He's not known for controversy and the odd situations where he dealt with less-than-classy opponents, he's taken it on the chin and moved on, usually with nothing more than brief statement. And he has been very positive about other younger GM's. So him coming out and "accusing" Niemann is akin to a nobel prize winning scientist accusing a g…

Carlsen had no problem playing Hans in the Meltwater championship weeks before the Sinquefeld cup. He had no issue playing Hans in the Sinquefeld cup. Until he lost to Hans. It’s also important to note that Magnus has still not actually accused Hans of anything. He’s letting insinuations, innuendo and Twitter imaginations run wild do all the work for him.

The thing about that loss, was that it was basically a curved ball, and Hans was prepared for it.

It sounds like Magnus was suspecting something and prepared obscure line to test his response. Its not conclusive evidence as there is always some chance he just studied that sideline and know how to exploit it.

But it looks like its conclusive evidence to Magnus or he knows more than he lets out.

Re: Magnus Carlsen resigns against Hans Niemann after one move

#289

Post by [deleted] »

cupofjoakim wrote: post #16
kareemsabri wrote: post #6

Kind of a basic question but how do you cheat at chess, especially "over the board" ?

There are many ways. You need outside help for everything though - you need someone to input the current board state into some kind of chess engine, and then relay the best possible move back to you somehow. There have been cases where someone has hidden a phone in the bathrooms to use for either communicating or inputting into a chess engine themselves. In Niemanns case people have joked about vibrating anal beads c…

[deleted]

Re: Magnus Carlsen resigns against Hans Niemann after one move

#290

Post by me_me_me »

Tenoke wrote: post #174
manojlds wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

His biggest challenge is next generation of younger prodigies like Pragg. He clapped at the end of their game in appreciation of Pragg. He's not paranoid about being usurped and knowing him through the years, he is going to take that as a challenge.

Hans made a comment after their game but before the drama - "Must be embarrassing for the World Champion to lose to such an idiot like me" which couldve easily tilted Magnus more than a simple loss with black (rather than white) or draw with someone like Pragg.

this is not an online game where people rage quit.

Carlsen himself said something akin to "Watzkin didn't have thick enough skin to become chess world champion", if you knew a bit about chess you wouldn't suggest this silly explanation

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