Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Magnus Carlsen resigns against Hans Niemann after one move

new.chess24.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

271–280 of 338 posts

Re: Magnus Carlsen resigns against Hans Niemann after one move

#271

Post by jl6 »

Andrew_nenakhov wrote: post #209
rasz wrote: post #204

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Have you ever heard of "innocent until proven guilty"? why would you need proof when Niemann already admitted to cheating in the past?

Because whatever a person did as a child playing online on a second-rate chess site is hardly relevant for a top-level over the board tournament with strict anti-cheating measures. It is simply immoral to deny any kind of redemption to any person who has ever made a mistake. For a person so ready to cast stones, are you yourself without any sin? Should the errors you once made follow you for the rest of your life? I'…

X-ray them too to catch any swallowed/implanted devices.

Re: Magnus Carlsen resigns against Hans Niemann after one move

#272

Post by [deleted] »

manojlds wrote: post #155
bosie wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How can it be someone from his own team? If someone from his own team leaked the prep to Niemann and Niemann prepared against it, that isn't even cheating on Niemann's part?

> that isn't even cheating on Niemann's part? Has Magnus said he's cheating?

[deleted]

Re: Magnus Carlsen resigns against Hans Niemann after one move

#273

Post by hammock »

wheresmycraisin wrote: post #130
H8crilA wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What? Just because of reputation? What are you even talking about... Have you ever heard of "innocent until proven guilty"? The burden of proof is on the accuser. We should be shown evidence, or Carlsen should apologize.

Yes, when it's something that's unprovable (if done well enough), reputation can play a role, esp. if it's golden boy v.s. admitted past cheater. And Carlsen didn't technically accuse him and Niemann is not technically on trial, so "innocent until proven guilty" is irrelevant. Magnus's goal seems to be to get Niemann disinvited from tournaments. He's taking such drastic measures for a reason at the expense of his own…

This is a solved problem. You don’t accuse them yourself but you leak information anonymously or have an undeclared mouthpiece (“friends close to Carlsen”) speak for you.

Re: Magnus Carlsen resigns against Hans Niemann after one move

#274

Post by MarioMan »

KingMob wrote: post #42
Y-bar wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why throw javelins when intercontinental missiles exists?

To be fair, athletes throwing ICBMs would really up the excitement of the Olympics.

Numan Athletics was an arcade game that played up this angle: https://youtu.be/X2K3hs7AUhQ

Re: Magnus Carlsen resigns against Hans Niemann after one move

#275

Post by H8crilA »

Cederfjard wrote: post #184
H8crilA wrote: post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, and it doesn't matter.

Who are you to decide for whom it does and does not matter? Like others have said, this isn’t a court of law. You have made your standard here clear, cool. Other people have other standards they apply to various situations, and they are using those to discuss this specific topic.

Ok, but the other presented standards are obviously ridiculous.

"This guy is famous and a master of the game, so I'm going to trust him when he's seriously trashing some young guy."

I am someone who can think.

Re: Magnus Carlsen resigns against Hans Niemann after one move

#276

Post by o_nate »

CydeWeys wrote: post #96
tibbar wrote: post #2

For context, Magnus withdrew from a major tournament last month after losing to Hans. He has not made a statement, but it is understood that he suspects Hans of cheating. Hans has admitted to cheating online, though he denies cheating in person. As more evidence comes out, it seems that Hans has cheated a lot more than he admitted, and potentially over the board as well (for example, this analysis [1] shows that he's…

> As more evidence comes out, it seems that Hans has cheated a lot more than he admitted, and potentially over the board as well (for example, this analysis [1] shows that he's playing at superhuman levels in some games.) This is being overstated. There's not any hard evidence suggesting he's been cheating over the board, and for such a potentially career-ruining allegation you'd want some pretty strong evidence.

Not being that familiar with the chess culture, it's weird to me that the distinction of "over the board" vs "online" seems to carry so much weight. Is it considered more acceptable to cheat online than "over the board"? I would think cheating is cheating.

Re: Magnus Carlsen resigns against Hans Niemann after one move

#277

Post by bombcar »

jpgvm wrote: post #200
smcl wrote: post #176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As an interesting aside, it looks like we're both in a similar situation - normally non-chess people who have read or watched a bit about this - but we happened to have landed on different opinions (me being a bit suspicious, you being willing to give benefit of the doubt). So it's funny that this issue appears to have divided both insiders and outsiders alike.

I think my experience playing esports (only at a semi-pro/amateur level however), including LAN play somewhat guides my perspective. Cheating is much more common in esports because of the nature of the game. However there are a lot of reformed cheaters that went on to become either amazing players or great people in the scene even if they didn't return to or find success in playing. Great examples from CS:GO include…

The thing people often forget is that once you’re above backyard pickleball you HAVE to be good at the game to cheat; cheating alone won’t turn a crappy player into a good one.

Cheating is that last edge that puts competitive players above their competition.

And for things like matchfixing- these are almost impossible to detect so you basically have to come down very hard on them.

Re: Magnus Carlsen resigns against Hans Niemann after one move

#278

Post by smcl »

jpgvm wrote: post #200
smcl wrote: post #176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As an interesting aside, it looks like we're both in a similar situation - normally non-chess people who have read or watched a bit about this - but we happened to have landed on different opinions (me being a bit suspicious, you being willing to give benefit of the doubt). So it's funny that this issue appears to have divided both insiders and outsiders alike.

I think my experience playing esports (only at a semi-pro/amateur level however), including LAN play somewhat guides my perspective. Cheating is much more common in esports because of the nature of the game. However there are a lot of reformed cheaters that went on to become either amazing players or great people in the scene even if they didn't return to or find success in playing. Great examples from CS:GO include…

Ahhhhhhh ok I see that's a bit different from how I was thinking about it, and yeah that does feel more forgivable. Here's maybe a better way of describing what I mean (though it's getting a bit more abstract and distant from the Hans/Magnus issue) if we have a timeline like this:

1. BadThingX occurs

2. related BadThingY occurs

3. related BadThingZ occurs

4. Bob denies doing all instances of BadThing

5. something comes out, and Bob concedes that he's done BadThingX when he can no longer get away with denying it

6. something comes out, and Bob concedes that he's done BadThingY when he can no longer get away with denying it

7. I am now pretty sure Bob is also responsible for BadThingZ

I've seen this kind of cascade of lies gradually unravel often enough that my brain (over?)eagerly pattern matches it. As I said this is a pretty abstract description that doesn't exactly fit, but I guess we're at least clear on how we have contextualised it and reached our own opinions.

Re: Magnus Carlsen resigns against Hans Niemann after one move

#279

Post by jpgvm »

kevinmchugh wrote: post #267
jpgvm wrote: post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A good counter-example is s1mple from the Counterstrike: Global Offensive scene. He was known to have cheated when he was a teenager but went on a redemption arc that has seen him become not only the statistically best player to ever play the game but also one of its most mature and respected players. All the while under intense scrutiny for cheating because of his history. I don't think one and out forever is really…

It probably is also not a standard that can be practically upheld in an online setting. In both of these cases as I understand them, the cheater did so on their main account. If they'd created a new account to cheat on, would people have known?

Unless they have good OpSec then yes. Valve issues VAC bans for associated accounts when they believe they are linked.

Re: Magnus Carlsen resigns against Hans Niemann after one move

#280

Post by erganemic »

o_nate wrote: post #276
CydeWeys wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> As more evidence comes out, it seems that Hans has cheated a lot more than he admitted, and potentially over the board as well (for example, this analysis [1] shows that he's playing at superhuman levels in some games.) This is being overstated. There's not any hard evidence suggesting he's been cheating over the board, and for such a potentially career-ruining allegation you'd want some pretty strong evidence.

Not being that familiar with the chess culture, it's weird to me that the distinction of "over the board" vs "online" seems to carry so much weight. Is it considered more acceptable to cheat online than "over the board"? I would think cheating is cheating.

Think of the distinction between "over the board" and "online" as kind of like the distinction between "NBA game" and "pickup game". Even that might be understating it. The levels of importance are radically different.

Also, think about how much harder it would be to cheat over the board. You might use hidden devices, accomplices, secret signals--compare that to an online game where all you need to do is switch over to another tab to check the engine. Cheating OTB requires a significantly greater degree of forethought, planning, and commitment--a persistent and repeated willingness to cheat that is way less acceptable than an online player getting tilted and looking at an engine. Still cheating, yeah--but at least it's not premeditated.

Post reply on HN