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Apple is top funder of lobby group that says it represents small developers

arstechnica.com

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Re: Apple is top funder of lobby group that says it represents small developers

#41

Post by mistrial9 »

shaboinkin wrote: post #18
musicale wrote: post #13

> One bill opposed by the App Association is the Open App Markets Act, which aimed to help app developers use alternative in-app payment systems and avoid Apple's standard cuts of 15 to 30 percent. The cut is a platform fee , and collecting it via the in-app payment system is mechanism , not policy. The core issue is Apple's rate: although it is usually comparable to rates on other game platforms (eShop, Google Play,…

I feel an unintended fallout of an eventual mandate to allow 3rd party stores on iOS would be Apple charging a license for the frameworks and tooling they provide. Something like, "Want to use CoreML? Well, each API call will cost you. Or would you rather take our 30% flat rate?"

"flat rate" means a fee is a fixed amount of money, not a percentage

Re: Apple is top funder of lobby group that says it represents small developers

#42

Post by smoldesu »

shaboinkin wrote: post #32
Bilal_io wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am just being pedantic, but 30% is the opposite of what a flat rate is. CoreML being a phone feature, then restricting it behind a paywall sounds like something customers would sue apple for. CoreML is already bundled in the price you pay when you purchase an iPhone. It will only work as a cloud service.

As I understand it, 30% pays for all of the frameworks Apple develops that is available to you when you fire up Xcode, as well as everything involved with running the store, and they take their cut when you post on their store and sell stuff. If a law comes by and says Sorry Apple, you need to provide a way for other stores to exist in your ecosystem, well, something is going to have to pay for the development of the…

> As I understand it, 30% pays for all of the frameworks Apple develops that is available to you when you fire up Xcode, as well as everything involved with running the store, and they take their cut when you post on their store and sell stuff.

Xcode is free, though. Apple 'takes their cut' when you pay $99/year to be a registered Apple developer. If that's not enough, then maybe they need to review the checkbook again. Whatever the case is, Apple made a mistake by attaching the success of their software platform to the success of their App Store. The future of the internet was never going to be proprietary, they should have known that back when Microsoft was sued over IE. It's not illegal, but they're certainly teeing themselves up for the most radical antitrust scrutiny witnessed to-date.

It's just a dick move. Consumer advocacy groups should have fixed this by now, but Apple's legendary PR and reality distortion field has fended off most attacks so far.

Re: Apple is top funder of lobby group that says it represents small developers

#43

Post by smoldesu »

musicale wrote: post #36
smoldesu wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My comment doesn't detract from that demand. What I'm pointing out is that Apple will suffer from this at a much larger scale, therefore it makes sense that they will fight tooth-and-nail to stop it. The 'platform fee' shpiel is a distraction from the real problem: iOS must allow alternative storefronts if it wants to survive long-term antitrust scrutiny. There is no other logical outcome.

That may indeed be true. However, the core dispute over App Store fees will likely remain, irrespective of additional app stores or sideloading, just as it has on Google Play. Solving the single app store antitrust issue doesn't solve the platform fee dispute.

Do you truly think antitrust scrutiny will stop if Apple lowers their rates again? I don't think that's all developers hate about the App Store...

Re: Apple is top funder of lobby group that says it represents small developers

#45

Post by userbinator »

saurik wrote: post #21
echelon wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I know it's a lot to ask, but would you mind providing some additional background as to the different sides and the potential outcomes / ramifications of this case? You seem to have a lot of context in this area. Could this lead to a VCR/DVR future where we're once again able to record or download steaming content? Platforms and DRM have taken us a step back from the freedoms we once enjoyed. I would be overjoyed to…

Frankly--as someone at the front line of all of this stuff--none of these DMCA related arguments have much "practical" importance in the medium-to-long term :/. (This is not at all to say it is a waste of time or anything: the right to examine products and discuss what you learn is really really important and is the basis of security research, so these lawsuits are extremely important and this DMCA law--which likely…

The real "practical" changes are thereby going to have to come from proactive regulation that prohibits certain forms of protection or corporate behavior

Indeed. Of course, trying to regulate crypto will bring everyone against (individual) privacy and freedom out in opposition, and forcing companies to not tie functionality to their private keys / force them to make public those keys would also make you an enemy of the "security" industry.

We live in an awkward time where bugs can be features

As the saying goes, "insecurity is freedom". We only got into this position because of corporate interests that oppose those of the user.

Re: Apple is top funder of lobby group that says it represents small developers

#46

Post by musicale »

Apocryphon wrote: post #40
shaboinkin wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As I understand it, 30% pays for all of the frameworks Apple develops that is available to you when you fire up Xcode, as well as everything involved with running the store, and they take their cut when you post on their store and sell stuff. If a law comes by and says Sorry Apple, you need to provide a way for other stores to exist in your ecosystem, well, something is going to have to pay for the development of the…

In a different world, Apple would embrace alternate app stores- by having them operate on their own terms. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32170848 Many walled gardens, growing different plants, landscaped in different styles, with different admission fees, but ultimately conforming to basic principles and paying their dues to the Apple botanical society. Apple Authorized App Merchants.

Nice idea, thought it would presumably shift the dispute over platform fees to a dispute over "Apple botanical society dues."

Re: Apple is top funder of lobby group that says it represents small developers

#47

Post by userbinator »

musicale wrote: post #31
ronsor wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Game console systems are insanely closed and locked down platforms. I consider anything console manufacturers do to be an antipattern, so the fact that their fees are comparable to Apple's only shows that Apple needs to loosen the purse strings a little.

> I consider anything console manufacturers do to be an antipattern Perhaps. On the other hand, Nintendo is a beloved company and the Switch is an incredibly successful system with fantastic games. So the walled garden seems to have worked out reasonably well. I'm not sure why you're responding to my parent comment though, as it was descriptive and not prescriptive.

Gaming is different because you normally don't expect much freedom on the platform nor use it for anything other than entertainment.

Re: Apple is top funder of lobby group that says it represents small developers

#48

Post by Apocryphon »

musicale wrote: post #46
Apocryphon wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In a different world, Apple would embrace alternate app stores- by having them operate on their own terms. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32170848 Many walled gardens, growing different plants, landscaped in different styles, with different admission fees, but ultimately conforming to basic principles and paying their dues to the Apple botanical society. Apple Authorized App Merchants.

Nice idea, thought it would presumably shift the dispute over platform fees to a dispute over "Apple botanical society dues."

That is true. I wonder what the payment structure is for Apple Authorized Service Providers or Apple Authorized Resellers. The economics definitely change when it comes to software. Consider a hypothetical iOS version of F-Droid: if such a third party store doesn't charge developers to host their apps, what kind of dues do they owe upstream? Apple would still claim that F-iOS is benefiting from the app distribution APIs and security features they're providing, not to mention updates to iOS itself.

Re: Apple is top funder of lobby group that says it represents small developers

#49

Post by nimbius »

fascinating read. from what I've gathered its a story about a three-hundred fifty billion dollar international company that employs child labor and once had to install suicide nets on their factory buildings. the story indicates they've also decided the counterintelligence level data they collect from their walled garden of proprietary-only apps is entirely insufficient to thwart oncemore being pressed to acquiesce to a living wage. ultimately theyve chosen a subversion campaign where they themselves pretend to be small developers and in doing so, bankroll what I imagine to be an otherwise successful campaign of suppression and profiteering.

EDIT: oof, capitalism strikes again. i assume the 'I work for apple' and 'well the devs just didn't form their own lobby' crowd has an opinion about their faceless godking. if devs are hackers and hn is devs, I don't understand why there's any defense of this company at all. Lisa needs braces. you deserve to be compensated for your hard work.

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