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Unicode character “ꙮ” (U+A66E) is being updated

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Re: Unicode character “ꙮ” (U+A66E) is being updated

#151

This kind of stupid thing is my problem with Unicode. We have all this baggage for stuff that nobody uses , and we need to deal with it forever. The worst for me is the way there is no possible way to encode a grapheme cluster as a constant size, so using Unicode make it impossible to have simple character access like an old style c string, no matter how big you make your char, even though it's totally possible with…

> encode a grapheme cluster as a constant size […] totally possible with damn near every language that people actually use

This is not true. For a concrete example: the languages Hindi and Marathi, with ~500 million speakers, use the Devanagari script (also used by Nepali and Sanskrit), in which a grapheme cluster is (usually) a sequence of consonants followed by a vowel. For instance, something like "bhuktvā" (भुक्त्वा) would be two grapheme clusters, one (भु) for "bhu" and one (क्त्वा) for "ktvā". In Unicode each vowel and consonant (here, bh, u, k, t, v, ā) is separately encoded, which is the only reasonable thing to do, and inevitably means that grapheme clusters can have different lengths (number of code points). The alternative would have been to encode every possible (sequence of consonants + vowel) as a single codepoint, which gets ridiculous quickly: these sequences can be up to 5 consonants long, so you'd end up having to encode (33^5 * 13 ≈ 500M) codepoints for Devanagari alone (or completely prevent certain sequences of consonants from being expressed, which makes no sense either), not to mention that most of the scripts of the Indian subcontinent and south-east Asia follow the same principle and have similar issues (e.g. Bengali with 250M speakers, Telugu, Javanese, Punjabi, Kannada, Gujarati, Thai with over 50M speakers each, etc).

(See chapters 12–17 of the Unicode standard, currently version 15: https://www.unicode.org/versions/Unicode15.0.0/ch12.pdf)

Re: Unicode character “ꙮ” (U+A66E) is being updated

#153
I think the big issue with Unicode is that it is centralized and there are politics about what characters get included (see Klingon)

I think I have a solution to decentralize Unicode:

1. Extend Unicode to 128-bits. We can still use UTF-8 variable length encoding which will limit the real size.

2. Use a blockchain to coordinate the characters. That way whoever wants to add a character can do it without gatekeeping.

These simple suggestions will go a long way in making Unicode less centralized.

Re: Unicode character “ꙮ” (U+A66E) is being updated

#155
post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Honestly it probably deserves the Pluto treatment: decertification as a character. One historical use in the 1400s doesn't merit a character and never did.

Unicode's mission is to make every document "roundtrip-able". Even if a character is only used once, it should be possible to save a plaintext version of the containing document without losing any information. Roughly, I should be able to put a transcription of that one translation from the 1400s on Wikisource without using images. You may disagree with me, and that's fine, but it doesn't change Unicode's mission. Be…

The thing is, this is just a decorative way to write “o”. It’s not a specific letter by any definition.

I can’t speak of other letters that were added in the same batch in 2007. Some of them seam meaningful, I donno, I don’t speak old church slavonic (although I am told it sounds like Croatian, which I understand a little)

http://std.dkuug.dk/jtc1/sc2/wg2/docs/n3194.pdf

Re: Unicode character “ꙮ” (U+A66E) is being updated

#156

I’m not sure how I feel about this. I’m not an expert by any means. But something just doesn’t feel right when you’ve got unicode with a character with one known use from forever ago. Doesn’t this open up the flood gates to just a ridiculous amount of work or else biased gatekeeping? How much work would it be to implement your own font of the entire unicode set? Or is that not actually a thing and fonts implement as-…

> How much work would it be to implement your own font of the entire unicode set? Or is that not actually a thing and fonts implement as-desired subsets? You can't, and you are not expected to do so. You are limited by OpenType limit (65,535 glyphs), various shaping rules that possibly increase the number of required glyphs, and lack of local or historical typographic convention. Your best bet is either to recruit a…

A single OpenType font file is limited to 65,535 glyphs. Nothing stops your font from being implemented as a series of .otf files (besides what people think of as a "font" when it comes to usage on computers).

But yes, time constraints are the limiting factor. I don't think anyone is going to dedicate their entire life to making a single font.

Re: Unicode character “ꙮ” (U+A66E) is being updated

#157
post #12

I love this character and I love the fact that is being updated. Just to get this right: at some point some person chose to doodle the letter instead of writing it the correct way and now we have a corresponding Unicode character? Sort of amazing and it also makes you think ...

I attended a Unicode meeting (or maybe two? not sure?) and came away with the impression that Unicode is like those open source projects that are used by half of the world and maintained by a handful of skilled and benevolent people. In Unicode's case I think most of them are paid, at least.

That is what I understood too. It doesn’t seem particularly hard to add new letters to Unicode too if you try a bit.

However that is a bit harder with emojis, that have their own subcommittee, which seem to be more bureaucratic and also more popular than the rest of Unicode. Everyone wants to make a new emoji.

Re: Unicode character “ꙮ” (U+A66E) is being updated

#158
post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Honestly it probably deserves the Pluto treatment: decertification as a character. One historical use in the 1400s doesn't merit a character and never did.

Unicode's mission is to make every document "roundtrip-able". Even if a character is only used once, it should be possible to save a plaintext version of the containing document without losing any information. Roughly, I should be able to put a transcription of that one translation from the 1400s on Wikisource without using images. You may disagree with me, and that's fine, but it doesn't change Unicode's mission. Be…

Meanwhile one still can't roundtrip regular Japanese without some kind of funky out-of-band signalling. By itself this kind of thing is harmless, but it speaks to poor prioritization from Unicode.

Re: Unicode character “ꙮ” (U+A66E) is being updated

#159
post #147

This is similar to "man in business suit levitating" emoji. How this stuff make it to Unicode?!

Levitating man is just an unicode encoding of an old Webdings (or windings?) font.

There was an accepted proposal to add many windings and webdings letters as unicode endpoints. Thus, levitating man in a suit.

Re: Unicode character “ꙮ” (U+A66E) is being updated

#160

I’m not sure how I feel about this. I’m not an expert by any means. But something just doesn’t feel right when you’ve got unicode with a character with one known use from forever ago. Doesn’t this open up the flood gates to just a ridiculous amount of work or else biased gatekeeping? How much work would it be to implement your own font of the entire unicode set? Or is that not actually a thing and fonts implement as-…

I'll tell you more: there are Unicode glyphs without known usage.
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