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An X11 apologist tries Wayland

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Re: An X11 apologist tries Wayland

#331

Post by [deleted] »

perihelions wrote: post #177
emidoots wrote: post #7

I recently tried switching to Linux with a few different distro's (Ubuntu, Elementary OS, etc.) and use Wayland. The thing that sticks out like a sore thumb to me, and which I've been unable to solve, is that apparently it's not possible to configure trackpad scroll speed. At all. From what I was able to gather, Wayland/libinput say they shouldn't be responsible for handling it and instead window managers should[0][1…

- "When I switch to my Linux laptop to test things, my trackpad is bonkers and I have to move my finger in like 1mm increments because otherwise I'd scroll like 10 pages in Firefox. It's infuriatingly frustrating." The scroll behavior is highly configurable on Firefox' side: check out some of these about:config flags (if this is still of interest), mousewheel.acceleration.factor mousewheel.default.delta_multiplier_x…

[deleted]

Re: An X11 apologist tries Wayland

#332

Post by jshdheoshso »

gpm wrote: post #89
wooque wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wayland is not GNOME, what you describe is not Wayland problem, but GNOME problem. It's possible in both KDE and Sway. GNOME is probably worst DE imaginable. After 20 years, they still don't have thumbnails in filepicker and even dropped preview side pane in GTK4. I can't even.

> Wayland is not GNOME, what you describe is not Wayland problem, but GNOME problem. Which in turn is the biggest problem with wayland. We are fragmenting the ecosystem with every window manager dealing with shared problems in their own custom way, because wayland only takes responsibility for a tiny fraction of the common things that every window manager does.

No post body was provided.

Re: An X11 apologist tries Wayland

#333

Post by moffkalast »

eternityforest wrote: post #324

I probably won't care about Wayland till it has full parity with X11. And that includes global keylogging and screenshotting. Obviously some kind of security mechanism would be needed so not just any program can do it, since that seems to be the point of Wayland, but I'm not a fan of just killing use cases and creating a mess of incompatible servers and optional features.

They still need to merge with Yuteni to achieve their full potential.

Re: An X11 apologist tries Wayland

#334

Post by dotancohen »

tannhaeuser wrote: post #247
eddyb wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

GNOME has kind of always been on the opposite end of the configurability spectrum from KDE, IME. But also I'm not super clear on how libinput fits into the picture, I think there used to be some Synaptics-specific integration in certain places that I never went back to, to confirm the differences (switched to libinput several years before, and I've completely forgotten since what I was trying to solve back then). Any…

So what are you using or recommending? Recently switched to kubuntu from gnome-ubuntu, and while some pain points have gone away (lack of global menu can partially be kindof mitigated, didn't have to fiddle with touch acceleration like on 20.04), I'm not impressed: middle-click gets in the way a lot and can't be switched off, power mgmt tray is lagging badly behind power events, weird dock preview and not-so-great ap…

  > middle-click gets in the way a lot and can't be switched off,
What do you mean by this? What happens when you middle click, that you don't want or expect to happen?

  > not-so-great app switching
How do you like your app switching? I agree that the default isn't great, but in System Settings you can tweak it beyond all reason. I can help if you tell me what you want.

  > FF crashing
I haven't had that happen. What addons do you have in Firefox?

  > insists on chromium as default browser
Again, System Settings. Or, from within the Firefox settings, there might be a way to set it as default.

  > apps or other capabilities I'm using that I didn't already use 15 or 20 years ago
What apps or capabilities do you feel are missing?

Re: An X11 apologist tries Wayland

#335

Post by tmtvl »

mkl wrote: post #9

> KDE, I have heard mixed things about, but can’t speak to. Does anyone here use KDE on Wayland currently? How well does it run? What are the pain points?

I switch between KDE Wayland and Awesome, my main pain point with Wayland specifically would be that my preferred video player (SMPlayer) has issues showing the video on top of its viewing area.

Unfortunately KWin kept the silly Xorg "screens are views of part of a display" convention so multiscreen workspace switching remains the same. I had really hoped to be able to switch workspaces on any screen independently.

Re: An X11 apologist tries Wayland

#336

Post by dotancohen »

kaba0 wrote: post #295
xani_ wrote: post #281

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Okay ? It can be lib. Just make wayland use it, not be thing every DE needs to. DE shouldn't care about where the mouse movement data comes from and should not need to compensate based on device.

There is no wayland.exe, it is a protocol.

But there is an implementation - to that GP was referring.

Re: An X11 apologist tries Wayland

#337

Post by qwerty456127 »

We have X11 apologists but no X11 developers.

We have Wayland enthusiasts, Wayland is backed by major players but still won't just work nearly as nicely as X11 does.

Isn't it already well over a decade that we are stuck in this situation?

Re: An X11 apologist tries Wayland

#338

Post by txtsd »

brnt wrote: post #243
Shorel wrote: post #169

The thing I dislike about Wayland is: Sometimes the server will crash. Video drivers or something. Hasn't happened much with 22.04, but used to happen more frequently before. Both with Intel and AMD. When this happens in X11, the server restarts, I see the screen go black for an instant, that's it. When this happens in Wayland, all my open programs are killed. No save prompts or anything, just insta-killed. This make…

Same here. Only, Wayland just hangs the entire screen, no recovery possible. I could reproduce this across distros and hardware (Intel, AMD and Nvidia). This was using stock Fedora 34, and I haven't tried since, because those hangs would occur within minutes of boot and I the closest I could come was "must be a driver bug". Exactly the same bug for all three GPU makers... Unfortunately, nobody seems interested in suc…

I experience the hangs every time my partner switches to a new TTY to use their profile and I switch back to try to access mine.

Re: An X11 apologist tries Wayland

#339

Post by yunohn »

jshdheoshso wrote: post #332
gpm wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Wayland is not GNOME, what you describe is not Wayland problem, but GNOME problem. Which in turn is the biggest problem with wayland. We are fragmenting the ecosystem with every window manager dealing with shared problems in their own custom way, because wayland only takes responsibility for a tiny fraction of the common things that every window manager does.

Quoted post unavailable.

> it's an infiltrated project.

By whom… exactly?

Re: An X11 apologist tries Wayland

#340

Post by mwcampbell »

kouteiheika wrote: post #184
bsder wrote: post #138

For starters, I do agree that the X11 model is fundamentally broken on the modern computing platform. However, sadly, I'm beginning to think that Wayland has made some fundamental architectural choices that are not fixable and are also broken on the modern computing platform. The biggest problem is that Wayland takes the "compositor" route and turns it up to 11. Unfortunately, nobody does multi-window compositor to a…

> The whole "You need link a library and draw your own decorations" is, put simply, ludicrous. Isn't that simply because of GNOME, where they refuse to support server side decorations[1]? [1] -- https://gitlab.gnome.org/GNOME/mutter/-/issues/217

If the GNOME project were a corporation with non-technical management and a PR department, some higher-up would have ordered the devs to just add server-side decorations to Mutter already, regardless of how it complicates the code or compromises their design vision, to fix the bad PR. Of course, at least one such corporation, Red Hat, is already funding a lot of the development on GNOME. Maybe the Red Hat higher-ups are giving their desktop developers too much autonomy.

I've read the thread. I think the GNOME developers have logical reasons for their position. But it still makes them look bad, particularly since every other Wayland compositor supports SSD.

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