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Poor writing, not specialized concepts, drives difficulty with legal language

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Re: Poor writing, not specialized concepts, drives difficulty with legal language

#272

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wrong. A long phrase requires the user to keep the entire meaning in their head until the end. Can you show us some "long readable phrases"?

"In his time the City was made more fair than it had ever been, even in the days of its first glory; and it was filled with trees and with fountains, and its gates were wrought of mithril and steel, and its streets were paved with white marble; and the Folk of the Mountain laboured in it, and the Folk of the Wood rejoiced to come there; and all was healed and made good, and the houses were filled with men and women a…

Every time i see an author use semicolons, they are fullstops in all, but name. It's not a long sentence. It's multiple independent sentences.

Re: Poor writing, not specialized concepts, drives difficulty with legal language

#273

I lay a fair bit of fault also at an almost visual/UI level of how we write laws. If you look at our law books, they are almost all words/text. Paragraphs and paragraphs of it. Yet in a lot of areas of law or regulation, graphical explanations are rarely used when they could help clarify immensely. To use a simple example, just think of when a map is needed -- and whether you would try to describe that by text. I als…

Right! So 'legalese' could be generated from simpler diagrams which make edge cases much more evident.

I've always thought that statements of law are a centuries-long struggle to get to a level of expression that we achieve in computer programs.

We also have unit testing and versioning, plus a lot of other relevant processes.

Re: Poor writing, not specialized concepts, drives difficulty with legal language

#274
post #245

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Everyone is subject to the law. How can you have any hope of following a law you cannot read? It certainly should be a goal.

Like everyone else - from the most destitute individual to the most sophisticated megacorporation - you can ask someone more literate.

“The law, in its majestic equality, forbids rich and poor alike to sleep under bridges, to beg in the streets, and to steal their bread.”

Anatole France

Re: Poor writing, not specialized concepts, drives difficulty with legal language

#275
I'd add overcomplication.

At least in the UK (I moved here btw.). I signed two rental agreements, 3 employment contracts and refused one employment contract on the basis of poor content. Each legal text were 40+ pages, taking very long to process not just beacuse of the sheer size but the obscure phrasing and errors as well. Tiny aspects were added to each in obscure language that a common person is supposed to process and give full consent with legal consequences. With the rental agreements I had no choice but to sing as is despite repeated chapters and typos changing the meaning, also internal discrepancies. I had to live somewhere and there was not much choice, not in the given time. But the refused employment contract was so poor to the level of pathetic, that I had to refuse. Chapters with common language altered uncomprehensible old english legal text, dead references, same text repeated 3(!) times in different places and two kind of paragraphs repeated in 2 locations. It also contained detailed rules about checking tyre pressure on own car when being out on company business and the rules of chewing gum in the office and the consequences of causing damage by the improperly disposed bubble gum. Accepting all in full with the consequence of disciplinary proceedings. Their reasoning addding so many tiny details was that the lawyer suggested adding anything, just in case. Yet, as there are millions of such small details possible in life it was hopefully incomplete still, failing to regulate other very possible scenarios.

I am convinced that this urge to include as much as possible led to the very state of poor and erronous content. As the contract grew and changed throughout the years dead paragraph references, content altering typos, rushly wrote nonsense sentences, inconsistency and errors grew. Led to me being the first (which I am very very surprised about) refusing to sign after about 2 weeks of intense deliberation (plus some days of processing and a full day intense work I had on a 40+ item list about problems and errors above my persoanal wishes). Many of the suggestions went into the contract but others were not possible to change without paying the lawyer and some weeks of work and of course they did not want to deviate too much from the common content, accepting the new contract with everyoen else, so it became hopeless to get to agreement eventually.

If the contract was ca. 3-6 pages max, like in my previous positions from elsewhere in Europe, then it was not in this bad state as it was easier to maintain and also comprehend (like my rental agreement in Sweden being one page premade to standard, purchased in a bookshop). Less was more in this case.

My current contract is also 30+ pages, with an international company but with individual contracts for the various locations, naturally. Our new HR head in the continental Europe is amazed how big the UK contract is compared to the one used in her country. Also agreeing pure details here and there, prepared by a local solicitor hired. We had to have long discussions about the content similar to the case with the refused one, but with less errors and accepting some remaining issues tentatively until the text is altered later during the employment (with the involvement of lawyers).

The contracts I meet here are huge, filled with obsure text difficult to understand for the common people mandated to accept its content in full, also buggy as the consequence of the shear size. I feel the whole purpose is lost this way. Especially when those supposed to comply with each and every details (there is a clause saying violating any clause could allow summary dismissal) cannot understand everything, due to unclear text or buggy content. Additionally the process is long, laborous, and at the same time rushed through in a competitive situation.

I can safely say that I am pretty unhappy about the contractual procedures around me and cannot take those seriously, despite the legal consequences being very real.

Re: Poor writing, not specialized concepts, drives difficulty with legal language

#276

For everyone commenting "laypeople aren't the intended audience", this monstrosity was a recent Texas constitutional ballot proposal, i.e. all voters in the state were asked to vote on it: > The constitutional amendment authorizing the legislature to provide for the reduction of the amount of a limitation on the total amount of ad valorem taxes that may be imposed for general elementary and secondary public school pu…

How people are supposed to comply with regulation when they do not understand that?

Re: Poor writing, not specialized concepts, drives difficulty with legal language

#277
post #245
post #226

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you suggesting that our legal system should be understandable by the dumbest person? I don't see how that's feasible or desirable.

Everyone is subject to the law. How can you have any hope of following a law you cannot read? It certainly should be a goal.

also school system does not teach you anything about criminal law or your rights, but teaches you poetry and differential equasions.

Re: Poor writing, not specialized concepts, drives difficulty with legal language

#278
post #245

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Everyone is subject to the law. How can you have any hope of following a law you cannot read? It certainly should be a goal.

Like everyone else - from the most destitute individual to the most sophisticated megacorporation - you can ask someone more literate.

Nice, are you gonna pay for my consulation with the lawyer?

I have spent the equivalent of a house deposit on immigration lawyers just to make sure paperwork is filed correctly and I know what I am allowed / not allowed to do. Many people simply can't afford that.

Re: Poor writing, not specialized concepts, drives difficulty with legal language

#279

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not even the writing - it can be blatant misinterpretation. There's precedential opinion that states that you can't ignore the letter of the law to pursue it's spirt. Yet there's a law that has "reasonable care" in it, but the precedential opinion on that is that it's a strict liability offense because 'applying reasonable care would frustrate enforcing the legislature's intent'... The judges don't care. They're…

A great example is Measure A which was passed in the last election a few months back in Santa Clara county: > Shall the measure amending the Santa Clara Valley Water District Ordinance 11-01 to limit Board members to four successive four-year terms be adopted? Term limits? Heck yes! Voters agreed: term limits are A GOOD THING. Measure A passed! What wasn't mentioned AT ALL, anywhere in the question put to the voters,…

That's the exact scenario for the PA measure - judges had a mandatory retirement age of 70 and the measure was to set that age at 75. People didn't know that there was already a limit. The original wording provided that info and it failed. Then they rewrote it like this just to get it to pass (I think they also took it to court, where an interesting party, a judge, ruled on the wording).

Re: Poor writing, not specialized concepts, drives difficulty with legal language

#280

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A great example is Measure A which was passed in the last election a few months back in Santa Clara county: > Shall the measure amending the Santa Clara Valley Water District Ordinance 11-01 to limit Board members to four successive four-year terms be adopted? Term limits? Heck yes! Voters agreed: term limits are A GOOD THING. Measure A passed! What wasn't mentioned AT ALL, anywhere in the question put to the voters,…

Interesting. Here in Washington, an "easy" fix for that is that the initiatives get a column for the "Yes" side and a column for the "no" side, in our voting booklets that we get in the mail with the ballots. But IIRC CA is still in person voting, right?

Yeah the voting booklet has the same design here, and the "No" side called them out on it. But who reads that? (Other than me and you, obviously.) The ballot itself had only the text which I quoted.
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