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An X11 apologist tries Wayland

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Re: An X11 apologist tries Wayland

#281

Post by xani_ »

kaba0 wrote: post #223
xani_ wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, it's wayland architecture problem. It forces every single DE that will use it to reinvent same thing. There is no good reason to do that, just a lot of duplicated effort. You will not want to have different mouse behaviour when you use different WM. Having it pluggable is fine, even desired, but pushing it on every DE is just waste of effort and just bumps the bar required for any DE to move to wayland. > GNOME i…

That is exactly what libraries are for, not protocols. Should Web Standards mandate the use of a given JS implementation because it hinders the creation of new ones? Also, the million+1 “de” under X are more like skins, there is absolutely no reason for them to exist in that form, they could just build on top of another wayland compositor.

Okay ? It can be lib. Just make wayland use it, not be thing every DE needs to. DE shouldn't care about where the mouse movement data comes from and should not need to compensate based on device.

Re: An X11 apologist tries Wayland

#282

Post by razemio »

ciphol wrote: post #277
adamzegelin wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can also use Gimp via a RDP or VNC session, which will give much better performance on low-bandwidth connections, since those protocols do damage detection, only sending updates of what's changed, and (lossy) compression. I'm not an expert, but my understanding is that the whole X11 is network transparent thing worked great when apps used the X11 drawing primitives. These days a significant number of X11 apps jus…

Is there a user-transparent way to run Gimp over RDP/VNC, similar to "ssh -X" for X11?

If I understand you correctly, yes. freexrdp has an option to render only a single window instead of the hole desktop. This works amazingly well and feels native. This is the trick WinApps uses.

You could either use WinApps or create your own script and add it to a desktop entry. Users can then open RDP Gimp like any other application without even noticing.

Re: An X11 apologist tries Wayland

#283

Post by skerit »

wooque wrote: post #68
emidoots wrote: post #7

I recently tried switching to Linux with a few different distro's (Ubuntu, Elementary OS, etc.) and use Wayland. The thing that sticks out like a sore thumb to me, and which I've been unable to solve, is that apparently it's not possible to configure trackpad scroll speed. At all. From what I was able to gather, Wayland/libinput say they shouldn't be responsible for handling it and instead window managers should[0][1…

Wayland is not GNOME, what you describe is not Wayland problem, but GNOME problem. It's possible in both KDE and Sway. GNOME is probably worst DE imaginable. After 20 years, they still don't have thumbnails in filepicker and even dropped preview side pane in GTK4. I can't even.

> GNOME is probably worst DE imaginable

I agree. And yet I also still use GNOME. I just really like the GTK aesthetic. And you'll have to pry dash-to-dock from my cold, dead hands.

Re: An X11 apologist tries Wayland

#284

Post by absove »

itvision wrote: post #234
bubblethink wrote: post #160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Is there a single Wayland supporter who finds the user experience to be better than X11? The immediately noticeable improvement with wayland is with respect to screen tearing, especially in multi-monitor rotated configurations. Screen tearing has always been an issue on x11, and while intel/amd drivers do a decent job in basic cases, things that don't work will likely never work given that x11 is mostly deprecated.

I haven't had screen tearing under X.org for more than a decade. Both under NVIDIA and Intel. A nice made-up issue but it's made up.

I have noticeable screen tearing on vertical monitors right now when scrolling and dragging windows on Fedora 36/Gnome 42/Xorg/nouveau. Glad to know this issue doesn't exist so I can stop paying attention to it I guess.

Re: An X11 apologist tries Wayland

#285

Post by akdor1154 »

AstralStorm wrote: post #3

How is the multi monitor story? Especially when the resolutions or refresh rates do not match?

Better than X but still not perfect.

If you have neat monitors where the difference in pixel dpi is simply an integer multiple (1×, 2×, etc) it's really good, no issues at all.

If you need fractional diff in pixel dpi (e.g. you want one screen at 1× and the other at 1.5×) it can kind of work, but dodgy - the 1.5× screen will have its windows rendered at 2× then downscaled, so won't be pixel crisp (and the unnecessary 2× render can push limits on old integrated graphics cards)

If you need diff in text dpi, e.g. like setting Xrdb.dpi or gnome's Scaling Factor, then you're up shit creek (but with X11 to keep you company)

Re: An X11 apologist tries Wayland

#286

Post by Jenz »

skerit wrote: post #283
wooque wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wayland is not GNOME, what you describe is not Wayland problem, but GNOME problem. It's possible in both KDE and Sway. GNOME is probably worst DE imaginable. After 20 years, they still don't have thumbnails in filepicker and even dropped preview side pane in GTK4. I can't even.

> GNOME is probably worst DE imaginable I agree. And yet I also still use GNOME. I just really like the GTK aesthetic. And you'll have to pry dash-to-dock from my cold, dead hands.

I’m sure this goes for a lot of people, me as well for some time; but in the end, the problems simply became too much for me— so I’m curious, how long have you been using Gnome?

Re: An X11 apologist tries Wayland

#287

Post by atq2119 »

aidenn0 wrote: post #76
seba_dos1 wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wayland forwarding has been there for years now: https://gitlab.freedesktop.org/mstoeckl/waypipe Is it seamless enough for what you had in mind?

I think GP was talking about how ssh has the -X and -Y flags for forwarding X, but you need to do something like -L XXXX:localhost:YYYY to ssh forward. TigerVNC (and some others) will do e.g. "-via foo@bar :1" which GP might not know, but is rather convenient. Xpra is still a better replacement for -X when launching a single application though.

Yes, that's what I meant, and thanks, those are interesting points.

My main use case is launching one-off visualization tools on a remote system that I'm ssh'd to anyway. ssh -X is hard to beat in terms of convenience for that use case, and e.g. a persistence setup would be overkill.

Re: An X11 apologist tries Wayland

#288

Post by magicalhippo »

WastingMyTime89 wrote: post #231

Can someone explain to me why Linux users seem to like arguing about purely technical pieces of their system like the init manager or the compositor as if it significantly affected them? It’s something I have always found strange.

Same reason petrolheads like to argue about purely technical pieces of their cars like the engine or transmission, as if it significantly affected them.

It's not that strange really.

Re: An X11 apologist tries Wayland

#289

Post by badsectoracula »

Gigachad wrote: post #65
Lio wrote: post #2

Wayland seems pretty good to me now. There are still the odd issues with HiDPI but I think that's mainly down to XWayland support in apps that don't support Wayland natively yet. e.g. If I'm running VLC and I move it from a 1:1 screen to a HiDPI screen then my mouse pointer goes tiny as it passes over it. It's a similar situation for some older Electron based apps too. Support for XWayland is OKish but not seamless.…

Mixed DPI is basically unusable on Wayland due to X11 apps but last I checked, X doesn't even support this at all. I gave up waiting because years later still almost every non Gnome app is electron or otherwise running in XWayland. Just changed my monitors to have the same dpi scale.

> Mixed DPI is basically unusable on Wayland due to X11 apps but last I checked, X doesn't even support this at all.

Xorg/RandR provides the necessary info, but it is up to the apps (really, toolkits) to work with that and to do it properly it needs the cooperation of both window managers and applications(toolkits) to define some messages/events for scaling, etc. It shouldn't be any different than the other common stuff between X clients, like ICCCM and EWMH (if anything, it should be part of a new version of EWMH), but nobody has bothered so far.

Also there is the -separate- issue where under XWayland, Wayland is lying to X about DPI so apps cannot scale themselves if needed. E.g. Lazarus/LCL has its own scaling logic which works even with the Gtk2 backend (Gtk2 has no scaling logic itself) under Xorg but under XWayland the compositor is lying to the program that is running at 96 (or whatever "non-hidpi") DPI and does bitmap scaling instead (so applications appear blurry). Or at least this is how it is under KDE (which is the only DE i have installed on my PC to use as a secondary environment for testing out stuff - i mainly use Window Maker myself as my main environment).

Re: An X11 apologist tries Wayland

#290

Post by badsectoracula »

foxhill wrote: post #180

i agree with a lot of this; > I was not happy so see that my mouse felt laggy i also noticed this immediately and it was infuriating. my display runs at 240hz, so there must be at least 2, maybe even 3 frames of latency for it to be noticeable. it's made more perplexing that wayland was supposed to represent a reduction in latency. > Out of the box, there’s a bit of that in wayland too, but sway has a way out: max_re…

> a non-point here from me but i only know of XOrg and Xfree86, and i think the last time i tried that, linux kernels started with a two.. :)

There is also Xenocara, but that is OpenBSD's Xorg almost-fork (they do track updates but also apply their own modifications).

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