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An X11 apologist tries Wayland

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Re: An X11 apologist tries Wayland

#121

I've tried to use Sway a number of times, and the biggest reason I keep bouncing off it is environment variables. There's a bunch of environment variables I want set for every process in my desktop session, from basic things like $EDITOR and $LD_LIBRARY_PATH to more complex things like $MOZ_USE_XINPUT2 or $SSH_AUTH_SOCK. When I use i3 under X11, gdm runs my ~/.profile script so I get all my standard login environment…

Definitely agree. It took several days to figure out the exact environment variables needed to get basic applications working and scaling properly. For example, if you want “click link and open it in default browser” to work in, say, Slack, you need environment variables to get it working. And since (like you say) basic profiles are not executed on startup, it’s very difficult to fix anything. I completely disagree w…

It seems to me that sway is intended for power users, people who know exactly what is going on with their linux from boot to window manager, and thus have no difficulty configuring whatever they desire.

If sway adopts opinionated defaults it will mess with people who don't care for those defaults. Perhaps there is a way to do it such that opinionated defaults immediately turn off in the presence of configuration but as far as I can see there is no interest in this.

Re: An X11 apologist tries Wayland

#122
post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can also use Gimp via a RDP or VNC session, which will give much better performance on low-bandwidth connections, since those protocols do damage detection, only sending updates of what's changed, and (lossy) compression. I'm not an expert, but my understanding is that the whole X11 is network transparent thing worked great when apps used the X11 drawing primitives. These days a significant number of X11 apps jus…

Very much this. Running the X11 protocol over the network is usually not a good idea anymore. By the way, does anyone know of a VNC-like solution that can use MPEG compression? Also, VNC could be better if it could increase the quality of parts of the screen once they stop updating. E.g. in TigerVNC setting a low bitrate doesn't improve the quality of text once the text stops changing.

> Running the X11 protocol over the network is usually not a good idea anymore.

It works well, though, and I'm not really interested in hearing that my own experience with it working well is a lie or some trick. Wayland gives up some things, and pretending that those things have no value isn't going to convince those of us who know they do.

Also, those of us who use non-mainstream window managers (such as Window Maker) are not interested in hearing that we should switch to some UI which doesn't support our workflow just because it's more fashionable these days.

There's a debate to be had here, and it needs to be had on the basis of facts, not lies.

Re: An X11 apologist tries Wayland

#123
post #7

I recently tried switching to Linux with a few different distro's (Ubuntu, Elementary OS, etc.) and use Wayland. The thing that sticks out like a sore thumb to me, and which I've been unable to solve, is that apparently it's not possible to configure trackpad scroll speed. At all. From what I was able to gather, Wayland/libinput say they shouldn't be responsible for handling it and instead window managers should[0][1…

>in Firefox

ScrollAnywhere. It's much better UX than even the best scroll wheels.

Re: An X11 apologist tries Wayland

#124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That flag has been broken for years: https://bugreports.qt.io/browse/QTBUG-70387 I doubt it will ever be fixed, because it offers no benefits when the application itself uses actual hardware rendering with GL or Vulkan. XCB can't speed that up at all.

...? the bugreport you pasted seem to have been fixed and merged 3 years ago. The vast, vast, vast majority of the apps i use daily don't do any GPU rendering, just plain classic widget-based productivity apps

Sorry, I didn't clarify. The bug was fixed with some use of pixmaps, in other situations it's still broken.

It sounds like the vast majority of apps you use are very old. Even plain productivity apps benefit from GPU rendering. If they don't it's because those apps are far behind, compare to things like Electron apps where everything has been GPU accelerated for quite some time because of Skia.

Re: An X11 apologist tries Wayland

#125
post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Without x2go most apps aren't usable over the internet now because x11 was designed around assumptions that are no longer correct and you end up with multiple round-trips during rendering. Even X2go provides an experience that's strictly worse than using windows via rdp. It just seems completely pointless to even bother with something x11's network transparency if you're designing an x11 replacement nowadays. It woul…

> x11 was designed around assumptions that are no longer correct Nothing could be further from the truth. If you use Xrender properly you can make very sophisticated drawing operations that are extremely efficient over the wire and that are GPU accelerated even when the process does not run on the local machine. It is Gtk and Qt that for wahtever reason decided to ditch their Xrender backends. > multiple round-trips…

Most of your comment is pretty bad misinformation. X11 was not designed to use Xrender. That was an optional extension that came later. And on many drivers, the drawing of XRender is still not actually GPU accelerated either. Remember that XRender was designed long before GPU drivers were in the state they are now, back in the era when people still thought 2D acceleration was going to be a thing. And, XRender is extremely limited to a small handful of primitives that were mainly used to implement the postscript drawing model used by cairo.

It is also not trivial to reduce the amount of roundtrips in an X11 program. If the program uses Xlib then it probably needs to have significant portions of it rewritten to use xcb, which is a lot more complicated than it seems because Xlib handles a lot of caching and logic that xcb simply does not. In some situations X11 roundtrips are simply unavoidable. Complaining about GTK or Qt will not change this. Even if it were possible to fix those, there are less and less contributors to those projects who are willing to spend time to maintain X11 support.

Re: An X11 apologist tries Wayland

#126
haven't had issues with Wayland in a while... my last issue was with my screenshot app Flameshot... but it has been fixed... my only two problems now is that I wish that Flameshot would support some other service besides IMGUR and I also wish that it could record animations/videos ;)

Re: An X11 apologist tries Wayland

#127
post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can also use Gimp via a RDP or VNC session, which will give much better performance on low-bandwidth connections, since those protocols do damage detection, only sending updates of what's changed, and (lossy) compression. I'm not an expert, but my understanding is that the whole X11 is network transparent thing worked great when apps used the X11 drawing primitives. These days a significant number of X11 apps jus…

Very much this. Running the X11 protocol over the network is usually not a good idea anymore. By the way, does anyone know of a VNC-like solution that can use MPEG compression? Also, VNC could be better if it could increase the quality of parts of the screen once they stop updating. E.g. in TigerVNC setting a low bitrate doesn't improve the quality of text once the text stops changing.

I think TurboVNC had some extensions in that direction. But it’s been a while since I looked at it.

Re: An X11 apologist tries Wayland

#128
post #86
post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wayland is not GNOME, what you describe is not Wayland problem, but GNOME problem. It's possible in both KDE and Sway. GNOME is probably worst DE imaginable. After 20 years, they still don't have thumbnails in filepicker and even dropped preview side pane in GTK4. I can't even.

With X11, I can change scroll speed using the `imwheel` tool. Years ago with Ubuntu and ElementaryOS, I could change it in the system settings GUI. Today, with Wayland now default, I can't change it at all when running Ubuntu or ElementaryOS. You can say this is a GNOME problem, or a distro problem, or whatever. But at the end of the day, I installed two of the most popular Linux distro's out there and my scrolling i…

GNOME has kind of always been on the opposite end of the configurability spectrum from KDE, IME.

But also I'm not super clear on how libinput fits into the picture, I think there used to be some Synaptics-specific integration in certain places that I never went back to, to confirm the differences (switched to libinput several years before, and I've completely forgotten since what I was trying to solve back then).

Anyway, I ended up writing a mostly-personal-anecdote below, that would likely not help, so you can probably skip it (if you do want to try anything, KUbuntu and https://neon.kde.org are both on top of Ubuntu, and there's other distros, but I've not kept up with any distro I might recommend)

---

I tried Ubuntu (w/ the GNOME default) once (back in KDE 4 times IIRC) and the lack of almost any flexibility felt like I was stuck in a sandbox (a literal one, like from when we were kids, not that it's easy to remember that far back).

The only other time I felt like that was when a friend gave me their old iPhone (6 IIRC?) "to see what it's like" and I had to give up trying it out because both the OS, and the few apps I could find (for its max supported iOS version), had random chunks of features missing (tbh I should've jailbroken it, then it'd just be one more piece of hardware I have no immediate use for - but I digress)

KDE is far from perfect (switched to Wayland recently, and been tracking a few QoL leaps in the next couple releases), but I can at least try to tweak it - same goes for using NixOS or ZFS tbh (not going to even defend those, but I have done both Gentoo-like shenanigans, and randomly RAIDed a dual-SSD laptop, respectively, quite painlessly despite not preparing for it from the start, and the weirdness budget is personally paid for a thousandfold).

Meanwhile I run into e.g. GNOME apps using libadwaita nowadays needing environment variables (that appear deprecated?) to apply the KDE gtk integration theme so they don't stick out like a desaturated winamp skin.

I've never felt like "power user" applied well to myself, like I'm not doing the equivalent of weight-lifting for computers, never want to be doing sysadmin if I can avoid it, I just want to have enough control to make things seamlessly neat for myself.

Opinionated defaults are great in the same way you'd set up a house for a marketing reel, but if I actually buy it, why would I have to deal with a landlord telling me I can't paint the walls or move/replace some furniture to maximize my comfort?

The "personal" in "personal computing" is supposed to be the same as the one in "personal property", and so I'd have similar expectations of "can screw with it without asking for permision" for both (modulo real estate being seen as an investment, and building codes, etc. - should've picked a smaller example than a house, oh well).

To stretch the house analogy further, just like I have leased (some corporation's) private property as office spaces, I would be fine to doing the same (also for business reasons) with e.g. a cloud platform (most likely through GHA, whenever they announce the paid tiers) - tho be fair to everyone, this applies far more to walled gardens than opensource software like GNOME.

Also, to be clear about the "sandbox" thing: sandboxes (and/or ideally more objcap systems) are great, and I think that the XDG Portal work is incredible for what it allows: the apps are getting sandboxed, the user getting more power over them.

Even without Flatpak (which I keep meaning to try out), I was happy to see e.g. the KDE Wayland screenshare dialog outright has an option for "create virtual screen" (which can further be configured in the KDE settings, and e.g. partially overlapped with a physical monitor, etc.). If the app was in charge, they would barely enumerate some of the windows correctly, let alone provide new virtual screens.

Re: An X11 apologist tries Wayland

#129
post #102

From https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Wayland "The X11 protocol was designed around running graphical apps across the network. While some people use this feature, it's far from common. Wayland drops this requirement as a way to greatly simplify its architecture." X client and server are usually the same machine, but they don't have to be. While on the road, you can use your notebook to open a Gimp session on your home machine…

Each time I tried running Firefox over ssh with X11 it either lagged or crashed. With Wayland's Waypipe it works flawlessly, I could even watch a Youtube video through it. I'm double checking it right now using a remove machine a few blocks away from my home. Running `ssh -X remote firefox` lags a lot worse than `waypipe ssh remote firefox`. The latter feels almost native, very responsive. So no, I don't think we are…

> I could even watch a Youtube video through it.

Watching a Youtube video on remote X is rarely a problem, there's no latency involved.

Re: An X11 apologist tries Wayland

#130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Mixed DPI is basically unusable on Wayland due to X11 apps but last I checked, X doesn't even support this at all. I gave up waiting because years later still almost every non Gnome app is electron or otherwise running in XWayland. Just changed my monitors to have the same dpi scale.

I have had a set up with a “retina” iMac (5120 × 2880) surrounded by two Thunderbolt displays (2560 × 1440) for close to a decade. No Linux distribution I’ve tried has managed to handle the different DPIs properly during this entire time period. There may be a way to cobble it together but I gave up many times. Neither the display layer, the window manager, nor the apps seem to be able to take full responsibility for…

These days the distros themselves all support it fine and the built in programs all work correct. But any program which relies on the XWayland compatibility layer does not work as X11 has no support for live switching dpi without killing the window and recreating it.

Apple has the advantage of forcing programs to use new apis while on the Linux side you have boomers insisting on using obsolete tech until they die because it lets them use gimp over telnet.

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