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Poor writing, not specialized concepts, drives difficulty with legal language

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Re: Poor writing, not specialized concepts, drives difficulty with legal language

#31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So because the computer doesn't understand English, or because the terminology is often new and constantly changing?

Because normal human language doesn't describe things exactly and exhaustively specifying the edge cases; as soon as you need do that (and you do, in law, programming, math proofs, etc), even if you don't use a single specific term you get language that looks like legalese. In essence, none of the commonly used English words means exactly what you need to, so you need to add many explicit qualifiers to specify which…

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Re: Poor writing, not specialized concepts, drives difficulty with legal language

#32
post #25
post #15

I am a lawyer who works with but doesn't do a MASSIVE amount of contract writing like some. I don't think "poor writing" is the right phrasing here, which implies ignorance or ineptitude. I think the reason contracts aren't readable to laypeople is because laypeople aren't the intended audience. We all know no one reads these, so we write them to future lawyers and courts who might want to get our clients in trouble.…

I imagine that a contract must be written for the malevolent reader. The opposite of generous. Striving not to communicate, but to preemptively win every possible argument. An airtight construction. Quite different from a conversation. Well, an ideal conversation anyway. Internet conversations seem to be more combative every day.

What you're describing is more applicable to a motion filed in court (one party is in battle with the other and has no reason to be friendly to the other party at all).

In the case of contracts, you're partially right, but it's more nuanced. The weird thing about contracts is that at the time they are signed, two parties need to agree with each other. If you're hiring a software vendor and I am your lawyer, I need to try to achieve two things at once: protect the company legally, but also sign the deal so that you can use the vendor. So I'm inclined to be somewhat friendly with the other side and to forego "air tight" legal defense of my side so that we can reach agreement.

Unfortunately this process has a side externality for clarity: we negotiate little parts of a template and the way we do so probably doesn't jive all that well with the template language.

Re: Poor writing, not specialized concepts, drives difficulty with legal language

#33
post #20

The sheer verbosity of the average person on the internet has always amazed me. You can't say anything in less than 3 solid paragraphs. Sometimes I wonder if the problem is mine. It certainly seems a hinderance to communication.

Quoted post unavailable.

>The top comment in this other HN thread: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32888730

I don't get it.

That post is great. The lead is at the top. It's highly visible and you don't need to read anything else if you don't want to.

The rest is just a long form explanation of why they like physical books.

Re: Poor writing, not specialized concepts, drives difficulty with legal language

#34
post #32
post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I imagine that a contract must be written for the malevolent reader. The opposite of generous. Striving not to communicate, but to preemptively win every possible argument. An airtight construction. Quite different from a conversation. Well, an ideal conversation anyway. Internet conversations seem to be more combative every day.

What you're describing is more applicable to a motion filed in court (one party is in battle with the other and has no reason to be friendly to the other party at all). In the case of contracts, you're partially right, but it's more nuanced. The weird thing about contracts is that at the time they are signed, two parties need to agree with each other. If you're hiring a software vendor and I am your lawyer, I need to…

Actually, clarification: what I'm saying applies to contracts between two sophisticated parties that are negotiating.

If I'm Facebook and you're a user, there is no negotiation. So I try to make it as air tight as (legally) possible.

Re: Poor writing, not specialized concepts, drives difficulty with legal language

#35
post #28

I've been a CTO at companies in various bits of the Anglosphere, and signed contracts in all of the bits (and some other places). I'm also married to an Anglosphere lawyer (which gives me lots more exposure than I might have guessed to the idiosyncrasies of the profession). In my experience, I very much agree with the headline (and abstract) here, but would emphasise that the US is the worst for archaic language, cre…

> Most other countries in the Anglosphere have been through a "plain english" language push in both contract & legislation

The US has seen big pushes for plain English. Nixon, Carter, Clinton and, most recently, Obama have all championed this. It has been federal law since 2010 for all executive branch agencies to use plain language in any official document they produce, for instance. Similar desires in law and contracts exist, though I'm less aware of that.

See: https://centerforplainlanguage.org/2021-federal-plain-langua...

And: https://www.plainlanguage.gov/

Re: Poor writing, not specialized concepts, drives difficulty with legal language

#36
post #15

I am a lawyer who works with but doesn't do a MASSIVE amount of contract writing like some. I don't think "poor writing" is the right phrasing here, which implies ignorance or ineptitude. I think the reason contracts aren't readable to laypeople is because laypeople aren't the intended audience. We all know no one reads these, so we write them to future lawyers and courts who might want to get our clients in trouble.…

> I think the reason contracts aren't readable to laypeople is because laypeople aren't the intended audience.

That's partly true — but there's no reason a contract can't be written to be understandable by mere mortals. (I do a lot of contract drafting and have been teaching it to 3Ls for years.)

Re: Poor writing, not specialized concepts, drives difficulty with legal language

#37
post #28

I've been a CTO at companies in various bits of the Anglosphere, and signed contracts in all of the bits (and some other places). I'm also married to an Anglosphere lawyer (which gives me lots more exposure than I might have guessed to the idiosyncrasies of the profession). In my experience, I very much agree with the headline (and abstract) here, but would emphasise that the US is the worst for archaic language, cre…

I tend to disagree. US law does require "plain language" in certain places (privacy policies for example) and that doesn't help. Also, while EU law is, perhaps, written in clearer language, the ambiguity of how it will be interpreted and enforced is actually so much less clear that overall their legal requirements are harder to decipher.

Re: Poor writing, not specialized concepts, drives difficulty with legal language

#39
I think this "poor writing", as in hard to understand writing with long backreferences is due to the same reasons as why many academics are terrible at explaining things, as well as why source code is hard to read.

I should know, others usually like pointing out how terrible I am at explaining things. And I think I know why.

When I make a naive attempt at describing a complex, interconnected concept, such as a piece of math, or a program that does a thing I start with a mental picture - a graph of interconnected concepts. Then I try to describe the picture - the same way one would describe a painting. I describe each visible part separately, often in great detail, then I try to describe the links and interconnections between parts.

This sort of 'accurate' descriptive style naturally leads to huge backreferences, and people usually have a ton of trouble following along.

However I think there's a way of getting your point across - one basically needs to reproduce the thought process of how one would come up with the given model given the real world constraints, illustrating the issue and its proposed solution with examples. It is often said that people are much better at deriving the rules from a few examples than the other way around.

However this sort of descriptive style takes both a lot of effort, and usually is less precise, which often is not acceptable, such as in the case of contracts or computer code.

Re: Poor writing, not specialized concepts, drives difficulty with legal language

#40
Is there an interpreter from legal language to human? Here, from the comments, I understood that the fact that no one reads the licenses is kind of intentional, for reasons that you can find on this page. This means that someone has to write a translator.
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