Live data from Hacker News

The case for ending calculus requirements for science majors

quillette.com

111–120 of 142 posts

Re: The case for ending calculus requirements for science majors

#111
post #80

Very much yes. I am currently trying to tutor my daughter through college-level calculus. She wants to be a civil engineer. Civil engineers, obviously, need to know calculus. But calculus is not being taught to her by engineers. It is being taught by mathematicians. And as part of teaching it, they are attempting to instill a "mathematical mindset". Which means, in practice, that it is an entry to proofs. Every proof…

You can't hope to understand first year physics without calculus. To be a reasonable civil engineer, don't you need to understand structural engineering, including dynamics, which requires differential equations? On the other hand, what do I know? The civil engineering plans for our place had glaring errors that the construction workers caught after doing half the earthmoving. Even after it was fixed, the results las…

> You can't hope to understand first year physics without calculus. To be a reasonable civil engineer, don't you need to understand structural engineering, including dynamics, which requires differential equations?

Yes, but memorizing a bag of tricks for hand solving integrals and ODEs that you will never see in symbolic form without more than a passing exposure to the underlying concepts doesn't help anyone understand anything.

Learning mathematical thinking and getting into the groove of that style of problem solving is equally as important (although much less concrete in its applicability for an engineer). But conflating rote memorization of the 'trick' to integrate cos(x)sin(x) with either helps nobody.

A first year physics course is a better venue for teaching actual understanding of what derivative means than a purely symbolic presentation of the chain and product rules followed by presentation of a 'quotient rule' as a separate thing to memorize rather than a trivial combination of the other two. As is implementing some simulations of simple dynamical systems. As is intro to epidemiology or ecology. As is playing cookie clicker.

Get students to visualise things, and actually experience them rather than memorize symbols. Then formalize themand introduce the language so they can express what they've learnt

Re: The case for ending calculus requirements for science majors

#112

Very much yes. I am currently trying to tutor my daughter through college-level calculus. She wants to be a civil engineer. Civil engineers, obviously, need to know calculus. But calculus is not being taught to her by engineers. It is being taught by mathematicians. And as part of teaching it, they are attempting to instill a "mathematical mindset". Which means, in practice, that it is an entry to proofs. Every proof…

This is exactly why I gave up on higher level calculus. It was full of highly illogical "tricks" in a way diametrically opposite to go how physics is rarely illogical. That plus the fact that even with fairly low power computers available then, it was apparent numerical methods would very soon become good enough.

Fully agree mathematics for non math majors the should not be taught by mathematics departments in college. Today in a very similar way I find data science is not effective when taught by college professors and their TAs and instead we get our own courses created by people with practical experience.

Re: The case for ending calculus requirements for science majors

#113

Very much yes. I am currently trying to tutor my daughter through college-level calculus. She wants to be a civil engineer. Civil engineers, obviously, need to know calculus. But calculus is not being taught to her by engineers. It is being taught by mathematicians. And as part of teaching it, they are attempting to instill a "mathematical mindset". Which means, in practice, that it is an entry to proofs. Every proof…

You may find the following books useful for your Daughter;

1) Who Is Fourier?: A Mathematical Adventure - A very nice intuitive introduction to Calculus and more.

2) Higher Math for Beginners (Mostly Physicists and Engineers) by Zeldovich et.al. - https://archive.org/details/HigherMathForBeginners

3) Elements Of Applied Mathematics by Zeldovich et.al. - https://archive.org/details/ZeldovichMyskisElementsOfApplied...

Re: The case for ending calculus requirements for science majors

#114
post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Married?

I think they meant it literally, to further reinforce the fact that they were colluding to extract profit out of their students via yearly textbook revisions.

You would probably be surprised at how little money a textbook author makes per copy. Think $2.00 on a $200 book.

It can add up to a significant sum if you're lucky enough to have your textbook adopted by many large universities nationwide, but I'm dubious that anyone is getting rich from a textbook used at only one university, even a large one.

Re: The case for ending calculus requirements for science majors

#115

Very much yes. I am currently trying to tutor my daughter through college-level calculus. She wants to be a civil engineer. Civil engineers, obviously, need to know calculus. But calculus is not being taught to her by engineers. It is being taught by mathematicians. And as part of teaching it, they are attempting to instill a "mathematical mindset". Which means, in practice, that it is an entry to proofs. Every proof…

Something used in only one proof is a trick. If it is used in two proofs it becomes a lemma.

Calculus is used as a filter. It is not taught because you will need it in the future, it is used to detect second rate minds. It is debatable whether this is an appropriate use .

Re: The case for ending calculus requirements for science majors

#116

Very much yes. I am currently trying to tutor my daughter through college-level calculus. She wants to be a civil engineer. Civil engineers, obviously, need to know calculus. But calculus is not being taught to her by engineers. It is being taught by mathematicians. And as part of teaching it, they are attempting to instill a "mathematical mindset". Which means, in practice, that it is an entry to proofs. Every proof…

Maybe the OP's daughter would be better off as a business major.

Re: The case for ending calculus requirements for science majors

#117
Part of understanding science is understanding where the ideas come from. It's not enough to know that the derivative of x^2 is 2x, but you have to know how and why this is the case. You have to understand how to model physical systems using math. And it turns out scientists occasionally need to build novel mathematical models. It is much better in these cases to have been exposed to more math, not less.

Where I went to school, "real" stats and experimental design topics were (mostly) offered as graduate courses. Psychology majors were given enough stats to read a psych paper. Physicists and Chemists were given enough stats to understand stat mech / pchem. Biologists and Geologists were given a much less rigorous intro to stats.

I believe the OP is advocating for more stats, not less calculus. Or at least a more consistent approach to teaching stats & experimental design at the undergrad level.

Re: The case for ending calculus requirements for science majors

#118
post #80

Very much yes. I am currently trying to tutor my daughter through college-level calculus. She wants to be a civil engineer. Civil engineers, obviously, need to know calculus. But calculus is not being taught to her by engineers. It is being taught by mathematicians. And as part of teaching it, they are attempting to instill a "mathematical mindset". Which means, in practice, that it is an entry to proofs. Every proof…

You can't hope to understand first year physics without calculus. To be a reasonable civil engineer, don't you need to understand structural engineering, including dynamics, which requires differential equations? On the other hand, what do I know? The civil engineering plans for our place had glaring errors that the construction workers caught after doing half the earthmoving. Even after it was fixed, the results las…

The connection between calculus and the quality of subcontractor work is dubious.

Re: The case for ending calculus requirements for science majors

#119

Very much yes. I am currently trying to tutor my daughter through college-level calculus. She wants to be a civil engineer. Civil engineers, obviously, need to know calculus. But calculus is not being taught to her by engineers. It is being taught by mathematicians. And as part of teaching it, they are attempting to instill a "mathematical mindset". Which means, in practice, that it is an entry to proofs. Every proof…

[deleted]

Re: The case for ending calculus requirements for science majors

#120

Very much yes. I am currently trying to tutor my daughter through college-level calculus. She wants to be a civil engineer. Civil engineers, obviously, need to know calculus. But calculus is not being taught to her by engineers. It is being taught by mathematicians. And as part of teaching it, they are attempting to instill a "mathematical mindset". Which means, in practice, that it is an entry to proofs. Every proof…

I can help her out. ; )
Post reply on HN