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Ask HN: How to validate a startup idea whilst employed?

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Re: Ask HN: How to validate a startup idea whilst employed?

#81

Post by laserlight »

onion2k wrote: post #69
steve_taylor wrote: post #41

Don't tell your employer. Don't incorporate until after you've quit your job. If you want to launch before quitting your job, consider using a merchant of record (e.g. Paddle) so you don't even need to incorporate. I'm assuming you're not competing with your employer, nor are you building your startup on your employer's time or with your employer's resources, in which case there's nothing wrong with this approach eth…

Don't tell your employer. This may make it less likely that your employer will take you to court, but if you do this and your employer does choose to pursue a case against you after you leave the court will see it as intentionally deceptive and it definitely won't help your argument.

My reasoning is the opposite. If one tells their employer about their side project, the court is likely to interpret this as an admittance by the employee of potential conflict of interest. Otherwise, employer could defend by stating “Why would I seek approval from my employer? This is clearly outside the scope of my employer's business and of my employment contract.”

Above reasoning is in line with why companies don't search for existing patents when developing new technologies. If they search for prior work and are found guilty of infringement, that's considered willful infringement, in which case damages are tripled.

Re: Ask HN: How to validate a startup idea whilst employed?

#82

Post by capableweb »

magicalhippo wrote: post #80

> I see no consideration for those whom are employed under employement contract to assign both moral rights and intellectual property to their employer. When I got hired the contract was apparently not up to standards (but very nice). After a few years they got some lawyers to write up a new one, and it included such a "we own everything" clause. I refused to sign it. The boss explained the intention was only on comp…

I've done the same thing in the past.

Also regarding "availability". One contract said something like "The employee must be available for emergency work at any point" which also felt a bit abusive. When asked about it, they said "in extreme emergencies, and not after working hours of course, or when you're on vacation" so I refused to sign until that wording was added to the contract.

At first they claimed it was just "standard" wording and maybe they can't change it. But after refusing to sign the contract, it was apparently possible to change.

Re: Ask HN: How to validate a startup idea whilst employed?

#83

Post by andy_ppp »

elromulous wrote: post #38

IANAL My understanding of this, even in states that aren't as protective of California, is that: 1. Companies aren't interested in your IP, unless it is very closely related to their core business 2. The burden of proof is on them 3. Courts are sympathetic with the individual over the company for this kind of thing Because of these points, companies try to paint the picture like they own all things you do, as a deter…

This is not an endorsement of what Joel says but his take is the polar opposite to yours: https://www.joelonsoftware.com/2016/12/09/developers-side-pr...

Lawsuits are expensive and will probably kill your business or time to work on your business either way.

Re: Ask HN: How to validate a startup idea whilst employed?

#84

Post by capableweb »

laserlight wrote: post #81
onion2k wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Don't tell your employer. This may make it less likely that your employer will take you to court, but if you do this and your employer does choose to pursue a case against you after you leave the court will see it as intentionally deceptive and it definitely won't help your argument.

My reasoning is the opposite. If one tells their employer about their side project, the court is likely to interpret this as an admittance by the employee of potential conflict of interest. Otherwise, employer could defend by stating “Why would I seek approval from my employer? This is clearly outside the scope of my employer's business and of my employment contract.” Above reasoning is in line with why companies don…

> Above reasoning is in line with why companies don't search for existing patents when developing new technologies. If they search for prior work and are found guilty of infringement, that's considered willful infringement, in which case damages are tripled.

The (US) patent system is so fucked up (granted you're talking about the US), where if you try to lookup patents, you might be fucked. If you don't try to lookup patents, you might be fucked as well. Damned if you do, damned if you don't

Re: Ask HN: How to validate a startup idea whilst employed?

#85

Post by __jambo »

Ultimatt wrote: post #65
that_guy_iain wrote: post #56

Many consider the only way to validate is by having someone pay money for it. Lots of people (myself included) will say they will pay for something but when the time comes to buy they don't. The book The Mom Test also points out well that lots of people will say your idea is good even when they have no intention of buying. They don't want to be assholes so they lie to you to make you feel good. The real question is,…

Ive signed away all intellectual rights for every tech job Ive had. To the point of rediculously un enforceable like any thought I have should be written down as a letter for review and explicit inclusion/exclusion.

Which reqion and field? Trying to get a bearing how common this is. I've also seen some very aggressive contracts, even for non-tech jobs in NZ and Canada. Default template contracts can be very aggressive in this sense.

Re: Ask HN: How to validate a startup idea whilst employed?

#86

Post by chrisbuc »

laserlight wrote: post #77
chrisbuc wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've managed to get specific exclusions for IP I've worked on as a side project, and more recently got my employer to include the majority of the github "balanced employee ip agreement" [1] in our employment contracts, which states quite clearly " If you create IP outside the scope of your employment or contract or before or after your employment or contract ("Your IP"), the Company doesn't own it " [2] (UK based com…

> “If you create IP outside the scope of your employment or contract or before or after your employment or contract ("Your IP"), the Company doesn't own it” Forgive my ignorance, but is this statement required in any of the jurisdictions in the world? In a post-slavery world, an employer cannot own what I choose to do with my own resources outside the scope of my employment.

Prior to this the contract let the employer claim rights over all IP I created unless specifically exempted.

From this: https://www.russell-cooke.co.uk/insight/briefings/2020/intel...

"The general position under English law is that IP rights created by an employee within the course of employment automatically belong to the employer; where there is any doubt as to whether an employee or their employer owns IP rights, the relevant legislation largely favours employers."

"If material which includes IP rights is created outside office hours and/or using the employee’s private resources this may give rise to arguments that the rights belong to the employee rather than their employer, but that is not decisive. The fact that work is done outside normal working hours does not necessarily mean that the work is not done in the course of employment as, for many employees, there is often no clear demarcation of the hours of work."

"The key question to be asked is whether the work was the kind of work which the employee was employed to do i.e. whether it was within the scope of their employment. Could the employee have been ordered to do the work and would it have been a breach of contract for the employee to not do it? The terms of any contract of employment and job description will be relevant, however, these (and duties more generally) often evolve in the course of time and it may therefore not be appropriate to rely on them exclusively."

IANAL, but my reading of that is that if I wrote a novel about unicorns and rainbows, that wouldn't be owned by the company, but if I wrote software, it would.

Re: Ask HN: How to validate a startup idea whilst employed?

#87

Post by alfiedotwtf »

vfc1 wrote: post #61

Don't overthink it. You can validate the idea using SEO tools, check if the competitors have traffic and do some detective work to see if they are viable companies. Check the SEO space, and see how many people are running ads on the main search terms, how hard is it to rank for the the main keywords. Check if forums exists, and discount coupons for similar products in marketplaces, check for similar products on produ…

> Your boss does not care about your side project, as long as you get the job done. But for you to feel better, don't put your name on it until you have quit your job, it's the internet you can still be anonymous.

> No company is going to waste their time and expensive legal resources gratuitously suing you for a side project, unless it's something blatant that directly impacts their bottom line.

Don't be so sure. Some jurisdictions allow companies to own the IP you create outside of work hours if it's explicitly in your contract or you're using work resources.

They may not sue you... until you have profit - then they'll want to collect their rightfully legal share.

Re: Ask HN: How to validate a startup idea whilst employed?

#88

Post by spoiler »

onion2k wrote: post #70
Ultimatt wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ive signed away all intellectual rights for every tech job Ive had. To the point of rediculously un enforceable like any thought I have should be written down as a letter for review and explicit inclusion/exclusion.

A long time ago (in the 90s, and in the UK) an engineer who worked with my Dad wrote a book that was something like "Hit Singles of the 1970s". The company, which made communications satellites, took him to court and claimed the IP and all the profits from it, and won . Dont assume things are unenforceable just because they sound stupid.

Oh wow. That sounds crazy that such slave-like contracts are enforceable. Do you know what their reasoning in court was? I can't imagine the connection between these two topics (satellites and 70s music). Was it just a predatory "all you do belongs to us" type of contract? Could he have counter-sued them for... I'm not sure what, breach of human rights?

Also, are there laws against abusing the legal system like this? There should be, if not

Re: Ask HN: How to validate a startup idea whilst employed?

#89

Post by alfiedotwtf »

magicalhippo wrote: post #80

> I see no consideration for those whom are employed under employement contract to assign both moral rights and intellectual property to their employer. When I got hired the contract was apparently not up to standards (but very nice). After a few years they got some lawyers to write up a new one, and it included such a "we own everything" clause. I refused to sign it. The boss explained the intention was only on comp…

Regardless of if a court would side with you, if there was no consideration when you signed the new contract, the contract may be void anyway.

Re: Ask HN: How to validate a startup idea whilst employed?

#90

Post by flir »

alfiedotwtf wrote: post #89
magicalhippo wrote: post #80

> I see no consideration for those whom are employed under employement contract to assign both moral rights and intellectual property to their employer. When I got hired the contract was apparently not up to standards (but very nice). After a few years they got some lawyers to write up a new one, and it included such a "we own everything" clause. I refused to sign it. The boss explained the intention was only on comp…

Regardless of if a court would side with you, if there was no consideration when you signed the new contract, the contract may be void anyway.

Isn't next month's salary the consideration?
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