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Rapid Green Energy Transition Will Likely Result in Trillions of Net Savings

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Re: Rapid Green Energy Transition Will Likely Result in Trillions of Net Savings

#211

Access to power / energy is what wealth is all about today, and has been for over 100 years. However rapidly a "green energy transition" could possibly happen, if it means reducing access to power / energy, then it means a drop in standards of living. In some parts of the world that means more than merely tightening the belt -- it can mean real hunger, while in many others it might mean a return to poverty, though pe…

Energy is just one factor, that played a huge role because we come from a world where lack of energy was limiting a lot of things.

The easiest counterpoint is energy efficiency. Often it reduces energy use while even increasing wealth.

The real issues of transition lie in processes that are relatively efficient with fossil fuels and relatively inefficient with electricity (H2 and NH3 production, hydrocarbon production, airplane fuel production)

Re: Rapid Green Energy Transition Will Likely Result in Trillions of Net Savings

#212
post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mean, I agree with you (I just said sometimes people call it that, not that it is that) but I don't think anything you said really contradicts it being a kind of capitalism. After all Lenin and Stalin and Trotsky disagreed literally violently with each other but Soviet Communism is still a label that contains all their efforts and systems.

Right but they were fighting over the direction of a type of political economy that predated all of them. Smith and other original thinkers that framed capitalism did so in opposition to mercantilism. Capitalism was a reaction to. And in many ways criticism of mercantilism.

Did Adam Smith invent capitalism? Did he advocate for capitalism? I still don’t really understand what we mean by capitalism

Re: Rapid Green Energy Transition Will Likely Result in Trillions of Net Savings

#213
post #209
post #165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Correct insofar as we are not completely sure that the ongoing precipitous rise won't tip us over an edge into an ice age.

Yes, that's the joker in the pack. Did you see the papers about the evidence for the ice pack on Greenland having completely melted before? It left me wondering about how much we can trust the ice core readings from there.

Obviously it has all melted off before. Many, many times.

That does not mean anything is wrong with the current ice cores. It only means they go back only as far as they go, and there may be gaps where partial melting happened before accumulation resumed.

Tipping over into a new ice age would not be a better outcome than where we seem headed without that.

Re: Rapid Green Energy Transition Will Likely Result in Trillions of Net Savings

#214
post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you can read French, this guy https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jean-Marc_Jancovici has published a lot of vulgarization on the topic - with numbers. If my memory of reading one of his books serves, fracking now costs 50% of the energy it produces (in addition to non-energy environmental impact, which is pretty large), up from ~10% for the easy oil we had ~50 years ago. Current-tech solar panels are in the same order…

That doesn't pass the smell test. A "raw" solar panel in China costs about 25 cents / W, and each watt should produce about 45kWh over its lifetime (5W per day for 25 years). If the embodied energy in the panel is half of the lifetime energy, that means that there is 22kWh of embodied energy in that W of solar panel, and they're selling that embodied energy for about 1 cent / kWh. And that assumes that there are no c…

Interesting counterpoint, thanks.

> A "raw" solar panel in China costs about 25 cents / W, and each watt should produce about 45kWh over its lifetime (5W per day for 25 years).

I imagine that you're making assumptions on having sufficient luminosity all year round, right? So perhaps that depends on where on Earth you are.

According to Jancovici [1], in most of Europe, solar panels produce about 100 kWh/m²/year, assuming that they are oriented correctly (I don't know if e.g. the necessity of cleaning them up is factored in). From the same source, in terms of energy used to build the panel (is shipping included?), it takes 1 to 4 years to reimburse that energy but that's under the assumption that all the energy from the panel can be used. In practice, solar panel installations produce energy at a rhythm that depends on nature, which means that for many uses, the electricity needs to be stored somewhere if we want to actually use it at a different rhythm, e.g. when you're actually at home/in the office/etc.

Unfortunately, storing electricity at scale with current-tech is energy-expensive (both to build the batteries and because of energy loss during storage), e.g. storing it as hydrogen has a yield of ~30%, couldn't find the yield of other technologies of batteries including the energy cost of building/shipping/disposing of the battery. So, in the worst case, these 100 kWh/m2/year turn into ~30 kWh/m2/year, which means 3 to 12 years for recouping energy cost.

So, by this calculation, the worst hypothesis maps to the number I was quoting above and the best one is at least one order of magnitude better. My bad.

Now, there is the problem that current-tech battery often relies on metals (i.e. Lithium) that are only available in limited amounts.

[1] https://jancovici.com/transition-energetique/renouvelables/p...

Re: Rapid Green Energy Transition Will Likely Result in Trillions of Net Savings

#215
post #145
post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The energy delivered by a solar panel is overwhelmingly more than needed to make it. The gain is enormous. There is simply no contest. Consider that makers of solar panels, and of the materials that go into them, get no break on their power bills. Each and every kWh that goes into making the panel is paid for, and necessarily has its cost folded into the price of the panel. Otherwise they would be paying power out of…

One could look for more direct sources, but the summary is that energy payback happens in 1-4 years out of current 25 year "life". And that 25 years is typically a warranty to 80% of original capacity. Year 26 of operation is not a sudden drop. https://www.solarmelon.com/faqs/solar-panels-use-energy-manu...

Unless I'm mistaken, that's based on the assumption that you're in position to use 100% of the energy produced during the day, exactly when it's produced. I'm sure that there are scenarios in which that's true (e.g. keep the refrigerator on all day long, use some other energy source for the night) but if your main use for the energy is not correlated with the sun being up (e.g. power your computer when you're back home in the evening), you need to add the actual energy cost of storage, which is typically really bad.

This considerably increases the time to energy payback. Still probably worth it, though.

Re: Rapid Green Energy Transition Will Likely Result in Trillions of Net Savings

#216
post #176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's because reserves are what matters. I don't care if there's billions of tons of lithium at the bottom of the Marianas Trench, nobody's ever going to go get it because it's too dangerous, difficult, and expensive. The same thing with space mining. Nobody's going to go mine asteroids because it's stupidly expensive. For all intents and purposes, if we can't get to it, it doesn't exist. And let's not forget about…

Not at all. If there were billions of dollars worth of whatever on the bottom of the Mariana trench, people would build advanced technology to extract these billions, without any further incentives than the market demand. A comparable case in point: commercial space launch companies. Arguably, commercial large-scale aviation, too.

Well, that brings us back to earlier in the thread.

It's not only about money-expensive. If it gets more energy-expensive to produce/store/route/... energy than the amount of energy we end up with in the end, the game is over.

So, in practice, there are limits to reserves. There is, of course, the possibility that these limits can change with new technologies, which in turn depends on money-cost as you mention.

Re: Rapid Green Energy Transition Will Likely Result in Trillions of Net Savings

#217
post #215
post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One could look for more direct sources, but the summary is that energy payback happens in 1-4 years out of current 25 year "life". And that 25 years is typically a warranty to 80% of original capacity. Year 26 of operation is not a sudden drop. https://www.solarmelon.com/faqs/solar-panels-use-energy-manu...

Unless I'm mistaken, that's based on the assumption that you're in position to use 100% of the energy produced during the day, exactly when it's produced. I'm sure that there are scenarios in which that's true (e.g. keep the refrigerator on all day long, use some other energy source for the night) but if your main use for the energy is not correlated with the sun being up (e.g. power your computer when you're back ho…

Panels are so cheap now that they pay even if you waste most of what they could have produced. A smallish battery that captures only some of the excess, and delivers it when you need it, suffices. Battery cost is still falling fast as new chemistries come online. Hydrogen synthesis and storage might displace batteries for domestic use, particularly if hydrogen-fueled cars succeed. (Advice: keep all that equipment outside!) If not, zinc/bromine battery tech looks strong.

Re: Rapid Green Energy Transition Will Likely Result in Trillions of Net Savings

#218
post #198

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, we're going to liquify the earth's crust and efficiently extract all the lithium...

Please do not post low-quality, shallow, dismissive remarks. If you have meaningful information to offer, post that instead. If not, don't.

No post body was provided.

Re: Rapid Green Energy Transition Will Likely Result in Trillions of Net Savings

#219
post #190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Have you given consideration to what you have written? You slyly abuse the English language by referring to me as a skeptic, yet then you proceed to brandish me as malicious. If the answers are '[so easily googled]', why haven't you provided any reference, or better still answered the questions posed?; (instead making yourself a considerable effort to publicly slander me as a timewaster, whilst my posts are censored)…

Google "climate change". Google "green energy". Google "decarbonization". Read up on them at Wikipedia. In the time you wasted typing up complaints, you could have become informed. Wasting your own time is foolish. Wasting others' time is an offense.

Offense is taken, not given. If you take offense to questioning the problem is yours and yours only.

Why is it the replies to my questions do not answer the questions, instead saying 'google it'. How can google answer what is mean in that context, in that article? I have asked here on hackernews, and I have still not gotten an answer - only piffle: nobody has forced you to engage here, so don't spout nonsense such as time-wasting; I have asked you a question, not subject you to an interrogation at quantanamo.

Re: Rapid Green Energy Transition Will Likely Result in Trillions of Net Savings

#220
post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Mining tech is essentially the same since ever, we just have transferred some physical efforts to machines, how a local mine is "green" and some in exotic places is different? Consider a thing: all industry do not pollute because they are evil but because the tech produce pollution. Something was done, something can be done, to reduce it of course, but that's not always possible, not possible more than a certain exte…

> how a local mine is "green" and some in exotic places is different? https://web.mit.edu/12.000/www/m2016/finalwebsite/solutions/... . https://empoweringpumps.com/5-ways-to-make-mining-more-susta... are both nice entry points for basic research. Mining tech has changed quite a bit since the early days- waste management is probably the biggest factor in whether a mine is relatively neutral or harmful to the environme…

Both are dreams, not very green by it's own, not really doable (like recycling water) and more important hyper costly witch means that the final product would be hyper-expensive. Are you ready to buy a small pot around 550€? Because that's the realist outcome of these starting point dreams.

In the end yes, mining companies have invested in various tech, accidentally not one really environmentally friendly for real, those green parts tend to be just scam business like CO₂ sequestration tech and nothing really used on scale. That's probably why we almost close all mines in the western world to transfer them far from people's and reporters eyes...

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