Live data from Hacker News

The case for ending calculus requirements for science majors

quillette.com

41–50 of 142 posts

Re: The case for ending calculus requirements for science majors

#41
post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

apparently, because his GPA, he can't find any job and the only thing can d is waiting for starve and die.

What companies even care about gpa

GPA will typically matter for your first job--although that's more because there's precious little else on the résumé that indicates your suitability as opposed to being a good indicator in and of itself.

Re: The case for ending calculus requirements for science majors

#42

"This student had lost four credits’ worth of tuition money, in return for nothing but a lower GPA" Haha, that's what it means when you fail these days. " lost " Wow

US universities have turned reinvented themselves into pay for play. Students have to shoulder more of the tuition and if you're paying for it you are the customer. And the customer always wants the best ROI.

Re: The case for ending calculus requirements for science majors

#43
How about the case for making science majors more rigorous instead of less? Calculus touches so much of science and engineering (not to mention everyday life) that suggesting removing it from the curriculum seems not just ignorant, but downright malicious. Talk about setting a generation up to fail.

Perhaps a better discussion is how to teach calculus more effectively?

Re: The case for ending calculus requirements for science majors

#44

Very much yes. I am currently trying to tutor my daughter through college-level calculus. She wants to be a civil engineer. Civil engineers, obviously, need to know calculus. But calculus is not being taught to her by engineers. It is being taught by mathematicians. And as part of teaching it, they are attempting to instill a "mathematical mindset". Which means, in practice, that it is an entry to proofs. Every proof…

It’s a very complicated IQ test.

Most people don’t need weed out level college math. But on the whole, those that pass the bar are more intelligent than those that don’t.

Maybe more useful to just take IQ tests to prove credentials than jump through these kind of hoops?

Basically none of the “hard” stuff I learned in computer science is part of my career (3rd year physics, linear algebra, etc). But I got to jump those hoops!

Re: The case for ending calculus requirements for science majors

#45

Interesting article. I think it would be a nice experiment to run an introduction to proof course, including something like Martin Gardner's puzzles, to show how proof works, and the power of thinking carefully and building up arguments (and using some elementary arithmetic to help). I think that'd go a long way towards increasing mathematical thinking with minimal suffering, like memorization of integrals. It should…

20 something years ago, GT had constructing proofs as an early CS course. It doesn't seem to be required anymore. Here's a 2005 course page for it: https://faculty.cc.gatech.edu/~vigoda/1050-Fall05/index.html

I don't recall it being terribly popular, but it was good as I recall (and useful when I later added a math degree, I think I had a leg up on most of my math major peers because of it).

Re: The case for ending calculus requirements for science majors

#46

Very much yes. I am currently trying to tutor my daughter through college-level calculus. She wants to be a civil engineer. Civil engineers, obviously, need to know calculus. But calculus is not being taught to her by engineers. It is being taught by mathematicians. And as part of teaching it, they are attempting to instill a "mathematical mindset". Which means, in practice, that it is an entry to proofs. Every proof…

> Every proof has a trick. If you can see the trick, you can generally figure out how to do the proof.

Not a good way of teaching a mathematical mindset... How are you supposed to know if your "trick" actually goes through? You'd probably need a full course in real analysis to actually learn the fundamentals.

Re: The case for ending calculus requirements for science majors

#47

Very much yes. I am currently trying to tutor my daughter through college-level calculus. She wants to be a civil engineer. Civil engineers, obviously, need to know calculus. But calculus is not being taught to her by engineers. It is being taught by mathematicians. And as part of teaching it, they are attempting to instill a "mathematical mindset". Which means, in practice, that it is an entry to proofs. Every proof…

My college used calc 1/2 as “weed out” classes. The best part was the professors were married, the same calc book was used for calc 1/2/3, and they revved the book every semester, basically rearranging the problem sets so you had to buy a ~200 book for 3 semesters, or make friends with someone who would let you photocopy the problem sets.

My entire faith in academia was broken as a result.

Re: The case for ending calculus requirements for science majors

#48

Very much yes. I am currently trying to tutor my daughter through college-level calculus. She wants to be a civil engineer. Civil engineers, obviously, need to know calculus. But calculus is not being taught to her by engineers. It is being taught by mathematicians. And as part of teaching it, they are attempting to instill a "mathematical mindset". Which means, in practice, that it is an entry to proofs. Every proof…

It’s a very complicated IQ test. Most people don’t need weed out level college math. But on the whole, those that pass the bar are more intelligent than those that don’t. Maybe more useful to just take IQ tests to prove credentials than jump through these kind of hoops? Basically none of the “hard” stuff I learned in computer science is part of my career (3rd year physics, linear algebra, etc). But I got to jump thos…

I went to a math oriented boarding school. When one started school, a test was administered to determine one’s initial math course. Students began their studies in a range of classes from Geometry all the way to MVC/Analysis. Having seen the standardized test scores and GPAs of many thousands of students at this school, and knowing many of these individuals personally, there is, at best, only a weak relationship between their terminal math course and their intelligence. We had kids who started in geometry and received perfect GPAs and SATs and were brilliant. We also had kids who started in Calc 2 or MVC and barely graduated.

Re: The case for ending calculus requirements for science majors

#49

Very much yes. I am currently trying to tutor my daughter through college-level calculus. She wants to be a civil engineer. Civil engineers, obviously, need to know calculus. But calculus is not being taught to her by engineers. It is being taught by mathematicians. And as part of teaching it, they are attempting to instill a "mathematical mindset". Which means, in practice, that it is an entry to proofs. Every proof…

It’s a very complicated IQ test. Most people don’t need weed out level college math. But on the whole, those that pass the bar are more intelligent than those that don’t. Maybe more useful to just take IQ tests to prove credentials than jump through these kind of hoops? Basically none of the “hard” stuff I learned in computer science is part of my career (3rd year physics, linear algebra, etc). But I got to jump thos…

Every college class is an IQ test, that's pretty much inherent in any sort of post-K12 education. Calculus is just really badly taught and has a misplaced focus on material (like computing closed forms of tricky integrals) that's less and less relevant in the computer age.

Re: The case for ending calculus requirements for science majors

#50
This is a big no no.

There is a case for different education perspectives for different majors (trying to teach in a more familiar way for people with different backgrounds).

But dropping it entirely? Why are you in that major to begin with? It's like going into compsci and not expecting math.

Post reply on HN