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Mouse embryo with brain and beating heart created from stem cells

cambridgeindependent.co.uk

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Re: Mouse embryo with brain and beating heart created from stem cells

#121

Post by NotYourLawyer »

colanderman wrote: post #109
NotYourLawyer wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even putting aside the embryo vs adult issue… pretty much everybody, religious or not, considers a human qualitatively different from a mouse.

Hence why I'm asking about embryos. What, scientifically, differentiates a human embryo from a mouse embryo, beside what it may eventually become? Why find the experimentation of one appalling, but not the other, when neither is allowed to grow? (I am not arguing one way or the other, merely that it is illogical and unscientific to differentiate.)

Because life begins at conception.

Re: Mouse embryo with brain and beating heart created from stem cells

#122

Post by sacrosancty »

ben_w wrote: post #80
sacrosancty wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why would we abuse them? We treat disabled people OK, don't we? What exactly is your fear? Some kind of prejudice against people who were born through different procedures? We already have test tube babies walking among us and nobody mistreats them.

That's the best case, even though "not abusing them" is a low hurdle. Such life would not be limited to human forms. Even with just human forms, if you're going to all the trouble to engineer custom life, why make that life anything other than your idea of perfect? I don't know for sure, but I suspect that a predisposition to obedience to authority figures may be engineered; some would want that in their own children…

None of that sounds like a disaster. What's wrong with a defacto slave enjoying their life doing what makes them most satisfied? Doesn't seem all that different from a normal human who works for pleasure, or even an artist who may work without pay but only for personal satisfaction.

You seem to be forgetting that people will get things banned if they're obviously bad. If simulating another person becomes a problem, we'll just write a law for that, same as we already do for fraud. You can sign somebody else's name on a document, you know! s How do banks survive the onslaught of fraud! /s

Re: Mouse embryo with brain and beating heart created from stem cells

#123

Post by sacrosancty »

mola wrote: post #75
sacrosancty wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why would we abuse them? We treat disabled people OK, don't we? What exactly is your fear? Some kind of prejudice against people who were born through different procedures? We already have test tube babies walking among us and nobody mistreats them.

"testube babies" have parents. These will have owners. I think it's a valid fear that once someone is able to create living things out of nothing, they'll treat them as products and tools We already do it with animals....

Who says they'll be property and not have the same rights as normal people? Slavery was banned. If this becomes so objectionable, it'll be banned too. Why are all you people assuming laws and civilization will stop existing in the future? Are you afraid that future people might not share your current political views? Get over yourself and let them have their own sovereignty and vote for what they want.

Re: Mouse embryo with brain and beating heart created from stem cells

#124

Post by ben_w »

sacrosancty wrote: post #122
ben_w wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's the best case, even though "not abusing them" is a low hurdle. Such life would not be limited to human forms. Even with just human forms, if you're going to all the trouble to engineer custom life, why make that life anything other than your idea of perfect? I don't know for sure, but I suspect that a predisposition to obedience to authority figures may be engineered; some would want that in their own children…

None of that sounds like a disaster. What's wrong with a defacto slave enjoying their life doing what makes them most satisfied? Doesn't seem all that different from a normal human who works for pleasure, or even an artist who may work without pay but only for personal satisfaction. You seem to be forgetting that people will get things banned if they're obviously bad. If simulating another person becomes a problem, w…

> What's wrong with a defacto slave enjoying their life doing what makes them most satisfied?

Creating such a being in the first place when one could've been a better small-g god.

Now this may just be naturalism bias on my part, a large number of people are a lot more comfortable with a thing if it's natural rather than the same thing artificial.

> You seem to be forgetting that people will get things banned if they're obviously bad.

The American Civil War was fought over a disagreement about what the north and south thought was obvious.

> How do banks survive the onslaught of fraud!

More than just laws punishing those who do it. Sarcasm aside, a better question might be, how does the USA stop hackers from all over the world from breaking into USA hospitals, encrypting all the documents, and getting hard to trace ransom money in return for the decryption keys?

Re: Mouse embryo with brain and beating heart created from stem cells

#125

Post by pyuser583 »

jvanderbot wrote: post #107
pyuser583 wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That might be true, but I know for a fact it’s a truism that doctors tell women to not feel as bad about miscarriages. My wife has had multiple miscarriages, to the point where it’s expected. Until doctors are informed of her history, they always say “the embryo wasn’t healthy enough to survive on its own …” My wife has a number of hormonal issues, but doctors can’t find a single diagnosis. But it’s certainly not wea…

We've swung from "God's will" to "Fitness" a bit prematurely. Sure, there are many underlying causes for miscarriages (which we've experienced in our house, as well), but the sense I got from talking to our docs was that luck has as much to do with it as anything. The signals and systems that benefitted homonids a million years ago still affect our chances in the modern world, and are full of false positives and nega…

My wife has always had insanely irregular cycles. We ask the docs if that could be part of the problem and they’re like “maybe.”

The insane thing is that insurance doesn’t cover fertility treatments.

So she can ask about her irregular cycles, but the moment she asks if this will interfere with having a baby, the doctors say “if I answer that question, I’ll have to code this appointment in a way insurance won’t cover.”

Apparently in the eyes of insurance companies, a 30 year old woman who can’t get pregnant is perfectly healthy.

Re: Mouse embryo with brain and beating heart created from stem cells

#126

Post by cantrevealname »

> By progressing development just one day further, they have proved development of the whole brain.

If you progress development to 20 days (gestation period for mice), do you get a live mouse? I assume not, but the article doesn’t tell us what happens to the embryo if you continue the experiment.

> UK law permits human embryos to be studied in the laboratory only up to the fourteenth day of development.

The restriction on human embryos seems to imply that non-human embryos are not restricted the same way. So I presume they didn’t terminate the mouse experiment for legal reasons.

Re: Mouse embryo with brain and beating heart created from stem cells

#127

Post by dang »

Tozen wrote: post #119
dang wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ok, we've put stem cells up there too. Thanks!

Now the title is arguably confusing and significantly different from that of the original linked article. It seems unnecessary to mangle the title to that extent, to create a wider difference.

It's standard for users to clamor for changes to misleading titles, and standard for moderators to accede to the clamoring. We do that because otherwise the thread fills up with ever more complaints about the title.

The OP is a press release and such titles are usually overstated and need to be changed anyhow. This is in the site guidelines: "Please use the original title, unless it is misleading or linkbait" (https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html). This one seems designed to aggrandize the study (as well a press release should, I suppose), so the complaining commenters had a point or two.

Re: Mouse embryo with brain and beating heart created from stem cells

#128

Post by nomel »

tsimionescu wrote: post #83
nomel wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Primates have been cloned [1], human embryos have been cloned (supposedly) [2], and there are confirmed gene edited babies [3]. But, I doubt the existence of a ban means humans haven't been cloned, because I have trouble believing that a group that would successfully clone a human would be dumb enough to tell the world, state sponsored or not. 1. https://www.science.org/content/article/these-monkey-twins-a... 2. http…

Primates are not humans, cloning embryos for stem cell research is different from creating human clones, and the scientist who produced the two CRISPR-edited children went to jail, and he and his associates are banned for life from working in this type of research or even providing care in this area.

> Primates are not humans

Those specific primates weren't human, but humans are primates [1].

Here's a quote from the Boyalife CEO, before the ban in China [2]:

> The technology is already there," Xu said. "If this is allowed, I don't think there are other companies better than Boyalife that make better technology."

> The firm does not currently engage in human cloning activities, Xu said, adding that it has to be "self-restrained" because of possible adverse reaction.

I don't believe laws have the ability to stop greed, or the desire for longevity (organs [3] without lifelong immunosuppressant therapy is very appealing). They just add a risk factor. This is why criminals still exist in the world.

1. https://www.smithsonianmag.com/science-nature/why-are-humans...

2.https://www.mtv.com/news/43bwd7/chinese-scientist-clone-huma...

3. https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/china-forcefully-harvests...

Re: Mouse embryo with brain and beating heart created from stem cells

#129

Post by sacrosancty »

ben_w wrote: post #124
sacrosancty wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

None of that sounds like a disaster. What's wrong with a defacto slave enjoying their life doing what makes them most satisfied? Doesn't seem all that different from a normal human who works for pleasure, or even an artist who may work without pay but only for personal satisfaction. You seem to be forgetting that people will get things banned if they're obviously bad. If simulating another person becomes a problem, w…

> What's wrong with a defacto slave enjoying their life doing what makes them most satisfied? Creating such a being in the first place when one could've been a better small-g god. Now this may just be naturalism bias on my part, a large number of people are a lot more comfortable with a thing if it's natural rather than the same thing artificial. > You seem to be forgetting that people will get things banned if they'…

Nonsense. Farm animals are unnaturally bred and essentially slaves. We somehow have them. Are you opposed to their existence too?

Yes, people have disagreed about slavery and farm/working animals and all those grey areas of animal and human rights. But it's arrogant of you to take your personal opinion and try to impose it on an entirely different society with creatures that you know nothing about "just in case" the members of that society happen to be morally wrong by your standard. Let them make up their own mind just as we make up our own minds today. They'll be in a much better position to do so.

Re: Mouse embryo with brain and beating heart created from stem cells

#130

Post by [deleted] »

mola wrote: post #75
sacrosancty wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why would we abuse them? We treat disabled people OK, don't we? What exactly is your fear? Some kind of prejudice against people who were born through different procedures? We already have test tube babies walking among us and nobody mistreats them.

"testube babies" have parents. These will have owners. I think it's a valid fear that once someone is able to create living things out of nothing, they'll treat them as products and tools We already do it with animals....

[deleted]
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