Live data from Hacker News

Rapid Green Energy Transition Will Likely Result in Trillions of Net Savings

cell.com

1–10 of 269 posts

Re: Rapid Green Energy Transition Will Likely Result in Trillions of Net Savings

#2
Critiqued at https://www.manhattancontrarian.com/blog/2022-9-16-cost-of-t... .

'[H]ere are what I believe to be the main problems with the work:

The principal driver of the whole thing is a forecast of rapid and continuous declines in the cost of wind turbines, solar panels and batteries. The assumption is that costs of these things will continue to decline exponentially without limit indefinitely into the future. From the “Results” section: “We know of no empirical evidence supporting floor costs and do not impose them . . . “ Of the three technologies at issue (wind, solar, and batteries), the one I know the most about is batteries. Here is the Way, et al., chart of price history of batteries and the projection they use for the future:

...

As to continuing rapid declines in the prices of wind turbines and solar panels, I’ll believe it when I see it. Yes there have been substantial declines to date. But at this point these strike me as mature technologies. The main issues in getting them built and operational are mining and processing huge quantities of metals and minerals, forming the metals and minerals into the devices, transporting the (very large and heavy) devices to their sites, and installing them. How are those things going to get cheaper by any substantial amount, let alone another order of magnitude?

The treatment of the energy storage problem in this paper is wholly inadequate, and bordering on the fantastical. The cost fantasies as to short-term storage are discussed above. As to longer term storage, from the Supplemental Information, pages 38-45, it appears that the proposed solution is almost entirely hydrogen, supposedly to be produced by electrolysis from water. (Here, they mostly.call the proposed storage medium “P2X fuels,” somehow implying that it might be something other than hydrogen, much like with New York and its “DEFR” fantasy.). There is currently essentially no existing prototype or demonstration project of this so-called “green hydrogen” anywhere in the world from which realistic cost projections can be derived. (From the 2022 JP Morgan Asset Management Annual Energy Paper, page 39: “Current green hydrogen production is negligible. . . .”). Way, et al., do cite some costs of existing electrolyzers, but I can find no discussion in the paper of the issue that producing hydrogen on a scale sufficient to back up the entire world electricity system is going to require electrolyzing the ocean. And the millions of tons of toxic chlorine gas thereby produced are going to go — where? The problems of dealing with enormous amounts of hydrogen — like explosiveness, embrittlement of pipelines, and the like — are dealt with with a wave of the hand. The creation of a massive green hydrogen infrastructure as the backup for wind and sun hasn’t even been begun by the most fanatical of the green energy crazies like Germany, California or New York. They take one look at the real costs and balk.'

Re: Rapid Green Energy Transition Will Likely Result in Trillions of Net Savings

#4
Only for solar/wind/pumped storage/biomass though.

Not for nuclear power:

>We constructed an additional scenario in which nuclear plays a dominant role in replacing fossil fuels, but this is much more expensive than the other scenarios. For example, using a 1.4% discount rate, the expected NPC is about $25 trillion more than for the No Transition scenario.

Re: Rapid Green Energy Transition Will Likely Result in Trillions of Net Savings

#6

Critiqued at https://www.manhattancontrarian.com/blog/2022-9-16-cost-of-t... . '[H]ere are what I believe to be the main problems with the work: The principal driver of the whole thing is a forecast of rapid and continuous declines in the cost of wind turbines, solar panels and batteries. The assumption is that costs of these things will continue to decline exponentially without limit indefinitely into the future. Fr…

I see his comments section had to explain what pumped hydro was to him.

Re: Rapid Green Energy Transition Will Likely Result in Trillions of Net Savings

#7

Critiqued at https://www.manhattancontrarian.com/blog/2022-9-16-cost-of-t... . '[H]ere are what I believe to be the main problems with the work: The principal driver of the whole thing is a forecast of rapid and continuous declines in the cost of wind turbines, solar panels and batteries. The assumption is that costs of these things will continue to decline exponentially without limit indefinitely into the future. Fr…

That's a very poor critique, as the URL, the title and the first sentence would suggest. Bad even by the low standards of these things generally.

edit: Turns out the author runs a climate change denial think tank:

https://www.desmog.com/global-warming-policy-foundation/

and has been talking nonsense on this topic for over a decade:

> During a question and answer period following the debate, a question from the audience nearly left Menton stammering. What plausible alternative explanations, he was asked, account for the obvious warming trend shown in actual temperature measurements since the nineteenth century? Menton’s initial response was ridiculous, consisting of but one word: “Clouds.” After an uncomfortable silence ensued, Menton continued: “Cosmic rays. Nobody knows what’s causing it.”

https://skepticalinquirer.org/exclusive/climate-science-on-t...

further edit: topical bit of info about one of the billionaires anonymously funding this "charity":

> Hintze is also chairman of the board of trustees for the Prince's Foundation for Building Community , to which he has donated £683,954 in recent years. In 2009, Hintze received The Prince of Wales Medal for Arts Philanthropy from Prince Charles, who has been a vocal critic of climate sceptics.

> In 2010 during a speech at St James' Palace, the prince said climate sceptics were peddling "pseudo science". In a speech at the European Parliament a year ago , the prince said climate sceptics were having a "corrosive effect" on public opinion and were playing a "reckless game of roulette" with the future of the planet. Last December, Hintze replaced Hylton as his charity adviser with Major William Mackinlay, Prince Charles's former equerry.

Worth noting that the Hylton fellow mentioned was ousted as part of a political scandal mentioned further up this article:

https://web.archive.org/web/20150817181047/http://www.thegua...

Re: Rapid Green Energy Transition Will Likely Result in Trillions of Net Savings

#8
post #5

the cynic in me says that those savings will just become profits for the companies and government through taxes and greed....so savings are relative. Also it seems to be highly dependent on solar mass adoption

You know, collectively, we can do something about that… It’s a political decision in society to allow that added value to be sucked up by those who are already wealthy.

Re: Rapid Green Energy Transition Will Likely Result in Trillions of Net Savings

#9

Critiqued at https://www.manhattancontrarian.com/blog/2022-9-16-cost-of-t... . '[H]ere are what I believe to be the main problems with the work: The principal driver of the whole thing is a forecast of rapid and continuous declines in the cost of wind turbines, solar panels and batteries. The assumption is that costs of these things will continue to decline exponentially without limit indefinitely into the future. Fr…

That's a very poor critique, as the URL, the title and the first sentence would suggest. Bad even by the low standards of these things generally. edit: Turns out the author runs a climate change denial think tank: https://www.desmog.com/global-warming-policy-foundation/ and has been talking nonsense on this topic for over a decade: > During a question and answer period following the debate, a question from the audien…

OK. But what about the idea that renewable energy costs have no floor?

Re: Rapid Green Energy Transition Will Likely Result in Trillions of Net Savings

#10
post #5

the cynic in me says that those savings will just become profits for the companies and government through taxes and greed....so savings are relative. Also it seems to be highly dependent on solar mass adoption

I hope many companies get filthy rich transitioning the US to a carbon-free economy. I hope we mint a ton of greedy billionaires in the process.

That sounds like a great deal for everyone!

Post reply on HN