Earlier quoted context omitted.
Stock Grants are not an "expense" under Generally Accepted Accounting Principles. So by paying in stock, instead of salary, it increases profits on paper. It does help with cash flow and other tangible benefits. Most employees would be wise to divest much of their company stock as soon as they are allowed. Don't have all your eggs in one basket.
This is incorrect by almost every reading. (There is a "technically correct" reading that the grant is not an expense, but the vesting thereof is and most of your post is concerned with the "paying in stock" angle, not the granting of future paying in stock.) https://carta.com/blog/what-is-asc-718/ https://www.investors.com/news/technology/amazon-stops-prete... (see the third paragraph about $FB) What you might be co…
Shopify lets staff decide cash-stock pay mix as shares dive
221–230 of 282 posts
Re: Shopify lets staff decide cash-stock pay mix as shares dive
#222Earlier quoted context omitted.
This is becoming more and more common at large tech companies. Stripe does the same thing. Over the last decade and a half tech employees have enjoyed massive returns due to stock appreciation during their vesting term, and now employers want to eliminate that. Of course the flip side is that when the stock goes down - like right now - then employees benefit. Ultimately they’re all going to cut out stocks entirely an…
Why on earth would employers want to eliminate those massive returns? That's been an amazing tool for employee retention, especially for FAANG. If they reverted to paying cash plus bonus, they would be less competitive when hiring and retaining people. The companies that are changing this are the ones whose stock tanked, and they are worried that employees will leave because of it. Companies whose stock did not tank…
Many of the companies that are doing this are near-IPO or post-IPO trying to make their finances better. With GAAP, IIUC RSUs are recorded as expenses/count against shareholder equity at the vested price. So if you are a company trying to become GAAP profitable, even if you don’t claw back old appreciated grants, you can prevent the problem going forward/appease shareholders concerned about the impact on GAAP profitability by preventing appreciation. A long-dated RSU is a liability that can become expensive.
Also personally I think getting highly appreciated RSU comp can introduce incentives like employees staying at a company longer than they should or want to (ie because they are burnt out or disengaged) since it may not be possible to find another job that compensates you nearly as much. And, it creates very large pay gaps - an entry level employee who joined 2 years ago may be making more than a staff level employee hired recently.
I think RSUs are amazing for employees and the vesting/expected refresher details are a very important thing I look at when evaluating working somewhere. But many other people probably just look at the Year1 TC which doesn’t include appreciation or refreshers at all. I think enough people are like me that traditional RSUs won’t disappear any time soon, but I expect more companies to try to see what they can get away with in reducing equity comp.
Re: Shopify lets staff decide cash-stock pay mix as shares dive
#223Earlier quoted context omitted.
The reality is that RSUs are a better deal because of the unlimited upside. If my RSUs go to zero, I jump to another company and reset my cost basis- there is actually little risk here beyond the first year lock up.
That's effectively an implicit call option. You can buy an explicit version on the public market. The question is "Is the cost of an explicit call option greater than the cost of finding a new job?" There is some benefit in that with an explicit call option, you have to pay up front, while with job switching, you only incur the cost if the implicit option "expires worthless". But that's balanced by the fact that with…
In practice it would be foolish to invest a large part of your salary in call options of the company you work for. But for the same reason RSUs are also similarly risky and you should always prefer cash and diversify your risk instead.
Edit: If you buy an at the money call and sell the equivalent put you can reduce the premium and replicate the risk profile of the RSU. But I'm not an option trader.
Re: Shopify lets staff decide cash-stock pay mix as shares dive
#224Earlier quoted context omitted.
Look at how a lot of valuations dropped during dot-bomb. 50% is nothing.
I agree with your point, however there has been plenty of 70-80% (or worse) destruction as well. Fiverr -88%, Fastly -92%, Pinterest -72%, Zoom -87%, Shopify -82%, Roku -85%, DocuSign -82%, Twilio -84%, Virgin Galactic -91%, DraftKings -75%, Palantir -82%, Coinbase -80%, Robinhood -88%, Rivian -78%, Roblox -72%, Unity -83%, Nikola -94%, Peloton -94%, Snap -86%, Square/Block -73%, Zillow -84%, Teladoc -90%, UiPath -84…
Like Nikola is down 94%, but it's still worth $3 billion on paper. This is for an electric vehicle company that staged a video of one of their vehicles being driven, only for us to learn in a fraud trial that it was rolling down a hill, with the excuse that they never claimed the vehicle was moving under its own power, just that it was "in motion." The company is worth nothing at the moment; any "worth" it currently has is a speculative bet that it will eventually produce something of value.
We need to start seeing the GOOG, META, AMZN, etc. stocks tank 80% before we can compare to the dotcom bubble, IMO.
Re: Shopify lets staff decide cash-stock pay mix as shares dive
#225Earlier quoted context omitted.
For the tech sector it's really been more like the last 22 years. There hasn't been an extended downturn in US tech stock since the original dot-com bubble. The 2008 recession ended up being a 1-2 year blip. The COVID contraction was extremely brief. By comparison, if you invested in the NASDAQ in 1999/2000, you'd need to wait 12-14 years to break even. I don't have a crystal ball, of course, but to me things are loo…
But did the bubble already burst in tech? Valuations are very low right now. I don't think we're necessarily at the bottom yet, but I think the worst has already come to pass.
The bubble may have burst but doesn't mean you've bottomed. Still haven't seen many companies go belly up or VC fund shutdown. All we've seen is valuations drop and some layoff but not big layoffs and also the valuation dropped from their spectacular highs so its all relative.
Re: Shopify lets staff decide cash-stock pay mix as shares dive
#226Earlier quoted context omitted.
This is not my understanding at all. Share compensation is considered an expense because it reduces the value of the shares held by other shareholders. It's advantageous for cashflow but neutral vs cash on the income statement. Disclaimer: I am not an accountant, this is not financial or accounting advice. Disclosure: I work for Shopify, but this should not be taken as a statement about Shopify's accounting or financ…
It seems like it would be along these lines. - The company may have to issue new stock for this. That's like a loan: some entity gives cash, in exchange for a piece of the pie. Not in the expense side of the ledger. This is where the value of the shares gets diluted, but I don't think that fluctuations in the value of stock go into the ledger Publicly traded stock fluctuates all the time; that can't be going into the…
GAAP are what they are.
Re: Shopify lets staff decide cash-stock pay mix as shares dive
#227I would short this stock waiting for its implosion... So Many Sites are using shoppify when they basically sell no or one product per year...
Re: Shopify lets staff decide cash-stock pay mix as shares dive
#228Earlier quoted context omitted.
No I would make 400k the first year. It’s cash as an alternative to the RSUs, not just deleting the RSU part entirely
That wasn't the example I gave to simplify things but sure if you want that then: If you got cash then you'd have made $400k the first year, $400k the second and $400k the third. If you got RSUs then you'd have made $550k the first year, $860k the second and $1000k the third.
First year make 400k, buy 200k worth of something that is not just one egg basket. But because it's salary you do that every ~2 weeks so you end up with hopefully more than 200k by end of year already too. Continue example over the other 3 years.
Yes the upside is smaller as I would assume the broader market part would return less in the upside case. The point is that your downside is 'better'. Instead of your tech stock tanking over proportionally you'd be down less or be even or could decide to stay in cash mid year as markets tank and interest rises or buy something else like a house. It basically allows for better 'control' and a less bad worst case at the cost of being able to 'win the lottery'.
Of course you are right that just buying one stock, even if not your own company from the cash is actually worse overall. If you were gonna do that, just get the RSUs.
Re: Shopify lets staff decide cash-stock pay mix as shares dive
#229https://twitter.com/tobi/status/1570791158691012610 It's funny seeing the example they give has total comp at 200K considering that a year ago they were still paying less than 100K USD (sightly over 100K CAD) for senior staff
I interviewed with Shopify earlier this year and they were offering ~200k for "Senior" tech positions.
Re: Shopify lets staff decide cash-stock pay mix as shares dive
#230One crucial thing not often talked about with this plan is that the stock is granted and vests quarterly . In fact, the amount of stock you get each quarter is also variable. E.g. if you choose to have 100k of equity each year, each quarter you get whatever amount of units equates to 25k of stock. So what they've done is nearly completely untie compensation from the stock price. You neither benefit significantly nor…
Not entirely, they've created a relationship, but it is the opposite of what is normally considered in "line goes up" thinking.
Usually when a company/market does poorly, people don't have a strong reason to stick around as the possible compensation dwindles down.
The stock price on your joining date somewhat controls how many stock items you get. This is mostly luck - your "birth" into the company controls the payout multiple for the next 4 years.
Once the company starts doing poorly, it struggles to justify handing out extra compensation to employees and even if a select few are handed out more stock, it is usually not enough to keep a majority of folks in the building.
So with standard RSU models it'd be a good idea to join a company which is currently rated a BUY, but it is not great to stick around and try to wait for a turn-around if you got RSUs issued in boom times.
The "buy 100k$ every quarter" sort of model flips that thinking around. When the company does poorly, you get to sort of double down your bets on on the recovery path. And if your work pulls off a recovery, then you get rewarded directly for sticking through the bad patch (or if you don't believe in it - sell it the same day you get it and put it in ETFs, but not quit from a pay dip).
Also if the company is "buying" stock with cash intended for an employee instead of issuing it from some pool (also without an RSU discount), then this also has a nice effect of masquerading as a stock-buyback.
So it directly incentivizes people to stick at a company through a bad spot or at least softens that loss of critical talent when the company hits a rough patch without any additional distraction to the board.