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Shopify lets staff decide cash-stock pay mix as shares dive

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Re: Shopify lets staff decide cash-stock pay mix as shares dive

#181

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When they were printing money endlessly and rates were low, your strategy is sound. However, the house of cards is now crumbling and there is no end in sight to rate rises. My hedge fund manager friend for a private family office is saying we will see double digit rates by end of 2023. If you believe this then you know what to do. If not, you should at least think what such macro conditions would do to liquidity.

Is your hedge fund manager friend shorting bond funds like crazy? If not, why not?

One would think so but he is cash and says he is unsure. He thinks that inflation may not be curbed even with low double digit rates!

Re: Shopify lets staff decide cash-stock pay mix as shares dive

#182

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why on earth would employers want to eliminate those massive returns? That's been an amazing tool for employee retention, especially for FAANG. If they reverted to paying cash plus bonus, they would be less competitive when hiring and retaining people. The companies that are changing this are the ones whose stock tanked, and they are worried that employees will leave because of it. Companies whose stock did not tank…

Should that be FAAG? Wasn't Netflix famously the one big tech co that paid all cash?

I just don't think that acronym will catch on

Re: Shopify lets staff decide cash-stock pay mix as shares dive

#183

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or you could get that cash and buy the same stock, without restrictions that come with RSUs. Oh... also... "Tax Man 22" - RSU grants are taxed at the time they vest. So if your 20000 RSUs vest at $100, then you pay regular income tax on $100... not lower capital gains tax on the $90 per RSU. Just the tax benefit is higher on cash, than RSU.

No, you can't. The number of people in this thread who don't understand RSU grants at all is kind of shocking. You're granted $800k of RSUs up front at the current stock price, 25% percent vests every year. That is VERY different than buying 200k of stock every year because the 800k is all granted at the INITIAL price, whereas buying 200k every year buys stock at the CURRENT price. If you could take 200k cash every y…

> No, you can't.

What are you replying to? That you cannot buy the stock? Because that is demonstrably false.

> If you could take 200k cash every year and then time travel back to the start of the period with it and buy the stock, THAT would be equivalent to RSUs.

Except that's not what the OP wrote.

> The number of people in this thread who don't understand RSU grants at all is kind of shocking.

Let me rephrase you - The number of people, yourself included, who are completely ignoring what the OP wrote to just rant about RSUs and seem more intelligent is... not shocking at all.

Re: Shopify lets staff decide cash-stock pay mix as shares dive

#184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you get the cash immediately, then you still buy the stock on the market if you expect it to go up. If the cash also comes on a vesting schedule, if you expect the stock to go up, you could buy call options on the market with expiries that match the original schedule, at the current strike price. Of course this has much more friction and some cost.

Right, but the stocks start earning value immediately and cash bonuses do not. Assuming gains are even at 5% per year, and the bonus is $100k (because the math is easier): With RSU's, you get $400k 1.05^4 (4 years of compounded growth) With cash, assuming you immediately invest the money, you get $100k 1.05^4 + $100k 1.05^3 + $100k 1.05^2 + $100k *1.05 Running those numbers, the RSU's are worth $486,202 at the end an…

30K of missed growth on 400K doesn’t seem so bad to not have 400K tied up in a single company.

If, along those 4 years, your company tanks 25% (Shopify tanked over 50%), you’ll be able to abandon the investment (and get 100k a year of something else), or double down and get more shares (aka dollar cost averaging).

Re: Shopify lets staff decide cash-stock pay mix as shares dive

#185
My experience is probably not relevant to the audience here, but having worked at startups largely in non-engineering support roles that got smaller or heavily diluted grants, I've lost about $3,000 on options in 10 years in tech.

I paid in $17,500 at two places where I had vested any options, all ISOs, and cashed out ~$14,500: broke even on an IPO at $7,500 vested, and lost $3k of $10k after the company was sold for less per share than the strike price of my options.

If I had stayed at the IPO'd company longer I could've gotten a higher-class of option, but my salary there was $15k/year less than the bootstrapped no-equity company I left them for, and the returns over two years of vesting would've still been less than one year of difference in salary.

At most of the places I worked, I either didn't make enough money or experienced too much external financial distress to actually buy all of the options I vested. Which is good, because none of them appreciated and most depreciated in value by 20%. If I had exercised all of my vested options I would've lost up to another $5-7k - at best I would have lost another $2-3k.

The only RSUs I was ever offered vested 2 weeks after I left a job that I'd had for almost six years, for a role elsewhere paying $25k/year more. The RSUs were a surprise bonus worth less than $5,000 and tacked onto everyone at the company, including roles that had already gotten larger RSU grants. If I had stayed two weeks longer and vested them, then when the company sold they would've been worth less than $4,000. Between the salary difference, a much smaller insurance deductible at the new job, and a 4x larger 401k match, I had effectively made up the difference by my fourth paycheck (eight weeks) just on salary.

On my experience I'd take the cash every single time. Reading the replies here, it seems like engineers, managers, and early hires live in a completely different reality regarding equity.

Re: Shopify lets staff decide cash-stock pay mix as shares dive

#186
post #2

I obviously don't want to give financial advice, but every time I've traded cash for stock in comp it's worked out for me in spades in the long run. This doesn't happen for everyone, it might not happen for you, but it's been very good to me on three separate occasions. Just remember that it's terribly illiquid and you're going to doubt your decision, potentially up to a decade later.

When they were printing money endlessly and rates were low, your strategy is sound. However, the house of cards is now crumbling and there is no end in sight to rate rises. My hedge fund manager friend for a private family office is saying we will see double digit rates by end of 2023. If you believe this then you know what to do. If not, you should at least think what such macro conditions would do to liquidity.

Sounds like the thing to do now is sell everything vested so far, then hodl new vests. Falling prices means the vests will hit with lower income (and smaller tax bill) but are likely to go up when interest rates fall again.

Re: Shopify lets staff decide cash-stock pay mix as shares dive

#187
post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a large part of why I feel this way. I grew up near Ottawa, and had a lot of friends whose parents worked at Nortel. They were compensated with a lot of stock, which they held onto (it keeps rising, after all). Their pension plan was mostly invested in the company stock too. When the company fell apart (let's set aside whose fault that is- different topic), they lost their jobs, their savings, their pensions,…

It boggles my mind when people vest RSUs and just leave them there, hold onto their employers' stock and don't sell & diversify. The RSU vesting day is equivalent to having bought the stock on that day, there's no tax advantage to holding onto it. Whether at SHOP or at AMZN/MSFT/GOOG, why keep all your eggs in the same basket? And yet the average person does exactly that.

Let alone, a lot of people seem to think that they get the lower capital gains tax on the RSUs... and most companies fail miserably to educate their employees.

Not to mention the horror that is the tax code in US, causing you to underpay taxes... because the company that does RSUs doesn't communicate well with your regular payroll company.

Re: Shopify lets staff decide cash-stock pay mix as shares dive

#188
post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>don't want to have a large amount of my portfolio tied up in the company I work for. Just before the .com bust a company I worked for decided to remove the option for employees to just dump their 401k contributions into company stock, and removed the option to direct a massive % of their paycheck into the company stock purchase plan. (I believe some of these limits became law later on but at the time it was legal) S…

Isn't one benefit of these programs(from the employer side) that employees are more directly tied to company outcomes, and thus will put out better work/product? Of course one person won't shift the stock price, but as a collective, over time, it certainly would.

That's just unsubstantiated claim.

Re: Shopify lets staff decide cash-stock pay mix as shares dive

#189

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From experience, that's not true. A bonus of $N is worth $N. A stock grant of $N has turned out to be worth $2.5*N or even more, by the time it finishes vesting. Could it have gone the other way? Of course, and it's often likely that at startups stock could be worth zero. But at large companies, even with the recent dips in stock prices, employees who joined 2+ years ago are better off with stock grants than they wou…

> by the time it finishes vesting. Right and during that vesting period if you had been paid cash you could have invested that money in a wide range of assets that are both more liquid and are not perfectly correlated with your source of income. Now if we're talking a bonus that would be paid at the end of the vest period such that you can't invest that money until you would have vested anyway then stocks is theoreti…

>Everyone has weird thoughts in their heads about RSUs people the last decade has been insane, and no one remember the last tech crash. The next one will be bigger and when you realize you are getting laid off at the same time that your RSU drop to near zero, it will feel like the variance might not be worth it.

As I wrote elsewhere, who knows? But in the dot-bomb crash, large solvent companies saw their stock tank by 95%. And, by the way, to first approximation no one was hiring so you're not just going to hop to another company.

Hopefully everything will be reasonably fine but I think a lot of people have an unrealistic expectation of worst case scenarios.

Re: Shopify lets staff decide cash-stock pay mix as shares dive

#190
post #174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They’re taxed as ordinary income when they vest, and only gains and losses from that point are considered capital gains or losses. And your cost basis is the value they vest at, so it’s no different than getting cash and buying those shares immediately. No special advantage to holding for a year vs any other stock you acquire with cash.

> They’re taxed as ordinary income when they vest That's correct, whether you sell them immediately or hold them. > and only gains and losses from that point are considered capital gains or losses That is also correct and was my original point. If you sell immediately, you've already paid the (personal income rate) tax and you're done. But if you don't sell immediately, waiting a year is preferable so you are able to…

But those benefits and trade-offs have nothing to do with RSUs, it’s just how all stocks are treated. And thus not relevant to a consideration of whether to hold RSUs or sell immediately on vest.
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