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US border forces are seizing Americans' phone data and storing it for 15 years

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Re: US border forces are seizing Americans' phone data and storing it for 15 years

#91

Post by galangalalgol »

gjm11 wrote: post #67
koheripbal wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is like suggesting a biological cell not have a cell wall. One of the fundamental functions of a country is to regulate input/outputs at the border. There are so many disastrous problems that arise from the elimination of a border, that I question whether such a suggestion is ever even made seriously or made by sane people.

That analogy may be more insightful than you meant it to be. Animal cells (e.g., the ones in your body or mine) do not have cell walls. They do have membranes surrounding the cells, but they aren't walls. In the same way, any country has borders, but there's a lot of scope for variation in what they allow across the border under what conditions. "Open borders" does not mean "no borders". For instance, the borders bet…

To get into the Schengen area there is a bit more inspection though right? We are just talking about a bigger cell.

Re: US border forces are seizing Americans' phone data and storing it for 15 years

#92

Post by gambiting »

Bakary wrote: post #79
dylan604 wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, they do, but not all people carry laptops where pretty much everyone will have a smartphone. There have been references to Cellebrite devices which target smartphones. So when all you have is a hammer, you focus on the nails. There are stories online of people having a "travel" laptop where they fill their USB/Thunderbolt ports with epoxy or similar to prevent device connections by anyone not just at border cros…

If the border guards see that your laptop has epoxy in the ports, and that by definition you are using this technique for privacy-averse countries, sounds like you won't be making the flight any time soon.

What border guards have you seen that would inspect a laptop that closely in the first place? I fly relatively frequently and all they care about is that it's kept in a separate bin to the rest of your luggage, no one looks at it upclose(also you can damage ports in a way that isn't visible on the outside).

Re: US border forces are seizing Americans' phone data and storing it for 15 years

#93

Post by O__________O »

BiteCode_dev wrote: post #71
O__________O wrote: post #31

Seems like real solution are phones that by default provided end-to-end-encryption for cloud backups, no local data “travel modes”, secure wipes, multiple logins, etc. — since trying to get countries to uniformly play by same rules seem highly unlikely.

No because if it's standard, they will ask you to disable travel mode and download all the data. You can say no, but you can't refuse and cross the border. It's not a technical problem.

It for sure is a technical issue and by “travel mode” I mean you:

1. end-to-end encrypt a cloud backup

2. Securely wipe the phone.

3. Install OS in travel mode, which means no local data is forced and at best kept until restarting phone. Hardware enforcement of ban of updates including firmware and OS, unless system wiped. With a visual unique easily recognizable “code” to tell if the current “travel mode” was over rewritten; for example, unique consistent computer generated recognizable human face is shown on reboot until being reformatted and is different every time phone is reformatted.

4. On reaching known safe point, phone wiped, OS installed in non-travel mode, backup installed.

If there’s no data or way to root the phone, it’s meaningless effort and would no longer even be done at the border; they might find another route to get data, but current issue would no longer be a viable route.

— to be fair, I did mention multiple-logins, but to me that was intended to mean additional features/options, not a replacement for the core issue of forced access to devices/data at predictable chock points like border crossings.

Re: US border forces are seizing Americans' phone data and storing it for 15 years

#94

Post by macrolime »

Havoc wrote: post #76
pearjuice wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

45 minutes of unsupervised access to your phone? Even if it's a "travel" phone I wouldn't connect it to any other device after that.

What are you gonna do? Throw you new iphone in the bin?

Sell it back to Apple with Apple Trade In and buy a new one

Re: US border forces are seizing Americans' phone data and storing it for 15 years

#95

Post by A4ET8a8uTh0 »

galangalalgol wrote: post #68
A4ET8a8uTh0 wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Eh, right are only rights if they are enforced and/or asserted. If neither is done, at best, they are forgotten and wither and at worst become a quaint memory of things that were. The rules exist for a reason. They also exist for people with guns; especially for people that do it on behalf of government. If you are afraid of guns from people in uniform, you are already doing it wrong. I will tell you this as an inter…

I have often wondered why gun control advocates in the US haven't taken the ammunition approach. Is there some precedent in the courts that limitations on ammunition are equivalent to those on the firearms themselves? I.E. ammunition commonly used for legal purposes cannot be banned?

In a sense, steps have been taken to do just that, but not in courts. I am not a proponent of those efforts, but it is important to understand what is going on. Various payment systems are currently trying coordinate in a way to track those purchases. Naturally, once they are tracked, they eventually will be marked as risky and, in banks anyway, derisked in a typical bank fashion. The same approach is taken for porn.

And to all that cheer this one, because you happen to align with those values, remember that a tool is just a tool and can be used by anyone for anything.

Re: US border forces are seizing Americans' phone data and storing it for 15 years

#96

Post by throwoutway »

xoa wrote: post #40
throwoutway wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The ACLU is wrong. The border does it all the time. Here is the one that sticks out in my mind as the most popular case: https://gizmodo.com/border-agent-demands-nasa-scientist-unlo...

> The ACLU is wrong. The border does it all the time. Here is the one that sticks out in my mind as the most popular case: The ACLU is not wrong, if you actually read their actual words. Your case doesn't say what you think it does. From your own article: > Bikkannavar insisted that he wasn’t allowed to do that because the phone belonged to NASA’s JPL and he’s required to protect access. Agents insisted and he finall…

Let me know how successful you are crossing the border and getting home when you tell CBP to “pound sand”. They’ll just deny you entry and you’re left with very little recourse. Effectively they are the judge and jury and you’re stuck in the waiting area if you’re lucky, a holding cell if you’re not

If you think you’re immune just because you’re a US citizen, you’re not.

Re: US border forces are seizing Americans' phone data and storing it for 15 years

#97

Post by Bakary »

gambiting wrote: post #92
Bakary wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If the border guards see that your laptop has epoxy in the ports, and that by definition you are using this technique for privacy-averse countries, sounds like you won't be making the flight any time soon.

What border guards have you seen that would inspect a laptop that closely in the first place? I fly relatively frequently and all they care about is that it's kept in a separate bin to the rest of your luggage, no one looks at it upclose(also you can damage ports in a way that isn't visible on the outside).

99% of my flights have been exactly like this with no device inspection, and I've been in multiple autocratic countries. What I meant is that if they are at the stage where they are looking to plug into your laptop, having the ports blocked like this will immediately cause problems for you in countries where blocking your ports would be useful. It's a catch-22

Re: US border forces are seizing Americans' phone data and storing it for 15 years

#98

Post by UI_at_80x24 »

gambiting wrote: post #73
howmayiannoyyou wrote: post #39

Terrifying for only 2 reasons: 1. Any malicious person savvy enough to pull off a crime of interest to the Feds is smart enough to provide a wiped or burner phone to DHS/ICE, and they have to know this. So, what is the point in doing this if not to target law abiding citizens. 2. USGOV has a spotty track record of keeping this information secure. A foreign actor is likely to access this info eventually. As one former…

>>So, what is the point in doing this if not to target law abiding citizens. It's the old rule known to governments all over the world - there is no such thing as an innocent citizen, there is only a citizen who you haven't investigated enough. Call me cynical but storing ALL of your digital data allows the agencies to basically find something, anything, that will allow them to further blackmail you into complying. E…

To add to your point, our laws are so overly broad that it is impossible to exist without breaking some law. (your point talks of 'digital data' my comment refers to real-life)

From driving 1mph over the speed limit, to skipping FBI warnings on DVDs, to countless other "innocent" infractions. If they look hard enough they will find SOMETHING. And that's all they need.

Re: US border forces are seizing Americans' phone data and storing it for 15 years

#99

Post by JustSomeNobody »

I think at this point, if I were to travel internationally, I would not bring my EDC. I'd buy a cheap phone when I arrived at my destination and just chalk it up to travel expenses. I would tell everyone I'll email them my phone number when I get to my destination in case of emergency.

I'd rather that complication than have some 'roid-redneck at the border capturing data that's really none of their business.

Re: US border forces are seizing Americans' phone data and storing it for 15 years

#100

Post by mlindner »

BiteCode_dev wrote: post #71
O__________O wrote: post #31

Seems like real solution are phones that by default provided end-to-end-encryption for cloud backups, no local data “travel modes”, secure wipes, multiple logins, etc. — since trying to get countries to uniformly play by same rules seem highly unlikely.

No because if it's standard, they will ask you to disable travel mode and download all the data. You can say no, but you can't refuse and cross the border. It's not a technical problem.

> You can say no, but you can't refuse and cross the border.

They can't prevent Americans from entering the country.

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