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US border forces are seizing Americans' phone data and storing it for 15 years

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Re: US border forces are seizing Americans' phone data and storing it for 15 years

#81
post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The ACLU is wrong. The border does it all the time. Here is the one that sticks out in my mind as the most popular case: The ACLU is not wrong, if you actually read their actual words. Your case doesn't say what you think it does. From your own article: > Bikkannavar insisted that he wasn’t allowed to do that because the phone belonged to NASA’s JPL and he’s required to protect access. Agents insisted and he finall…

That sounds great when typing it up on the internet in a comfortable chair, but when a few power hungry workers with guns are breathing down your neck in a small room you can't get out of, the rules aren't going to make you feel 'safe'.

As sibling comments have said already, rights must be defended, and clear eyed prep is a big part of the answer for individuals. Even just thinking it through a bit, while you have time.

>That sounds great

How does having your property confiscated for days/weeks and being arrested sound "great" to you? It's not great, it stinks. For some people it could even be ruinous. But it's also legal reality. Every single "right" your or I or anyone has came out of blood. Lots of blood. Blood, sweat, tears, money, activism, power both soft and hard. The entire reason the ACLU exists at all is precisely that rights don't auto-enforce and must be defended, that's literally their raison d'etre. When they say US Citizens have an absolute legal right of entry but that exercising it may result in significant inconvenience or cost they aren't wrong. All of society as well as individuals need to work with that tailored to their own situations.

>but when a few power hungry workers with guns are breathing down your neck in a small room you can't get out of, the rules aren't going to make you feel 'safe'.

And? What does "feeling safe" have to do with this? And it's precisely because we're "in comfortable chairs" that it's the best time to go over our rights and consider ways to protect them both at the overall political level and individual level, rather then once we're in the hot seat. Preparation is worth a huge amount. If you know both your rights and the practical risks, you can do things like simply carry a minimal phone/computer, load and reload with a VPN at your destination. Make sure trusted contacts know all your travel plans and status. If you're carrying sensitive data for a corporation or government, check in with your legal department, HR etc. That's literally a core strength of a big organization, that they can have powerful specialists of their own vs leaving it all on their employees. At the political level, when was the last time you actually wrote your Senators and House Rep? If you're outraged and feel at risk, the bare minimum is telling them that. It adds up. Even if one gets a canned reply they absolutely pay attention to volume on an issue, and on a sliding scale. People who are angry enough to actually go to the trouble of writing or even calling are presumed to represent some number of people angry enough to maybe vote in opposition or stay home on election day but can't be bothered to write or don't know to.

Re: US border forces are seizing Americans' phone data and storing it for 15 years

#82

Seems like real solution are phones that by default provided end-to-end-encryption for cloud backups, no local data “travel modes”, secure wipes, multiple logins, etc. — since trying to get countries to uniformly play by same rules seem highly unlikely.

No because if it's standard, they will ask you to disable travel mode and download all the data. You can say no, but you can't refuse and cross the border. It's not a technical problem.

>>. You can say no, but you can't refuse and cross the border.

It is my understanding that if you are American and are trying to enter, they can't stop you from coming in indefinitely, is that not true?

Re: US border forces are seizing Americans' phone data and storing it for 15 years

#83

This happened to me in 2016 crossing into Canada. Borders agents took my phone for no reason, demand I give them the password to unlock it (otherwise they would seize the phone), took it in the back for 45 min before returning it and letting me enter. I think it’s obvious they took all my data. So now when I travel I just bring my “travel” phone with no sensitive data on it.

They can't actually do that. If you just refuse to give them the password they'll give it back to you.

Re: US border forces are seizing Americans' phone data and storing it for 15 years

#84

Quoted post unavailable.

This program predates Biden. The fact that the Biden administration is cooperating with the senator (a Democrat) suggests the Biden administration doesn’t support the program very strongly.

Most of this stuff was enabled by the patriot act, which was pushed through by George W Bush. Also, the Republican controlled Supreme Court recently ruled it is legal for states pass laws that explicitly ignore vote tallies moving forward.

If you want the US to be a democracy moving forward, I suggest you watch Biden’s Sept 1, 2022 speech. It touches on these issues.

Re: US border forces are seizing Americans' phone data and storing it for 15 years

#85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd like to see a country experiment with an open-but-chargable border. Ie. You pay a substantial fee for permission to cross the border. Once the fee is paid, it's unlimited border crossings for life. For example the fee could be $5000 + 5% of your total wealth. The fee reduces immigration and limits it to the rich, who you probably wanted to allow in anyway. And it costs about what people traffickers currently char…

We have something like that with "golden visas/golden passports" already here in Europe. The result was a bunch of Russian oligarchs with Schengen freedom of movement [1]. [1] https://www.dw.com/en/eu-threatens-legal-action-over-maltas-...

So maybe we don't want all the rich people? And we probably want some of the poor people. There is a shortage of all sorts of labor afterall.

The real issue is that there is no good way to verify the identity or non-criminal nature of any of the migrants. You can create a solid ID at the time of entry and start tracking there at least.

Re: US border forces are seizing Americans' phone data and storing it for 15 years

#86
post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's not an acceptable answer in a number of countries.

It's not like you have another phone you're trying to hide and pass this one off, right? So at that point, it is the only answer. They can not like it all they want, and they can spend as much time trying to find how you're gaming them, but if you're not actually gaming them, then that's their problem.

>>but if you're not actually gaming them, then that's their problem.

Is it? They have almost infinite time and money, they can follow false leads and accusations almost indefinitely, and whoever makes that decision will never be met with any kind of consequence for making the wrong call. However sitting in a cell somewhere while they wait for you to give them information that doesn't exist definitely sounds like your problem not theirs.

Re: US border forces are seizing Americans' phone data and storing it for 15 years

#87

Do they do this with laptops too? If not, the laziness of assuming everything is on the phone is amusing.

And I'm still waiting for someone to explain how that works with employer gear.

I'm guessing my corporate compliance team will not be pleased if I tell them someone made copies of all the companies data...even if it is uncle sam.

Like what does one do in that situation? Can't really agree. At the same time US border staff is not known for their understanding nature when it comes to saying no.

Re: US border forces are seizing Americans' phone data and storing it for 15 years

#88

The way US treats the migrants is human rights violation at the border. Now add this to the pile of atrocities committed by the border patrol and ICE. It's high time we should consider open border.

This is like suggesting a biological cell not have a cell wall. One of the fundamental functions of a country is to regulate input/outputs at the border. There are so many disastrous problems that arise from the elimination of a border, that I question whether such a suggestion is ever even made seriously or made by sane people.

Pre-modern world having no borders is what gave birth to immigration into the said country & other parts of the world which got colonized over time. Kinda hypocritical to suddenly have everything closed up. Who knows maybe space travel or resource scarcity is what unites all countries centuries down the line.

Re: US border forces are seizing Americans' phone data and storing it for 15 years

#89
post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't get the plausible activity bit. Just tell them it is your travel phone and be done.

That's not an acceptable answer in a number of countries.

Then what is an acceptable answer if you really have not brought your main phone?

Re: US border forces are seizing Americans' phone data and storing it for 15 years

#90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That sounds great when typing it up on the internet in a comfortable chair, but when a few power hungry workers with guns are breathing down your neck in a small room you can't get out of, the rules aren't going to make you feel 'safe'.

Eh, right are only rights if they are enforced and/or asserted. If neither is done, at best, they are forgotten and wither and at worst become a quaint memory of things that were. The rules exist for a reason. They also exist for people with guns; especially for people that do it on behalf of government. If you are afraid of guns from people in uniform, you are already doing it wrong. I will tell you this as an inter…

It's not the guns that are the problem in this scenario, it's the person holding it. If they feel like they can get away with anything, no rule will help you. And even if down the line you get your day in court, you'll still be the one shot.
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