Earlier quoted context omitted.
> national security implications There’s nothing more American than spying on your own people and blaming it on terrorists.
A government that doesn't keep good enough control if it's people will soon be overthrown. When you give the people more freedom to protest, organise, mass communicate easily etc, you also have to add equal amounts of monitoring and restrictions to make sure that next movement to overthrow the government can't pick up speed without you catching it.
US border forces are seizing Americans' phone data and storing it for 15 years
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Re: US border forces are seizing Americans' phone data and storing it for 15 years
#22Earlier quoted context omitted.
From reading the directive it appears as though they don’t have an exemption for Americans: https://www.dhs.gov/sites/default/files/publications/PIA-CBP... Of course the official response is what you would expect: “CBP officials declined, however, to answer questions about how many Americans’ phone records are in the database, how many searches have been run or how long the practice has gone on, saying it has made no…
It's tiring that "national security" is thrown around to justify stonewalling. Does anyone audit the "national security" excuse? An Ombudsman? Where does policing end and national security begin? Oh well, I'll buy a thin-blue-line flag for my lawn and sleep easy, trust the good-guys.
To fight these people you have to be some combination of powerful, morally spotless and willing to make great personal sacrifices - like Chelsea Manning.
Re: US border forces are seizing Americans' phone data and storing it for 15 years
#23Earlier quoted context omitted.
A government that doesn't keep good enough control if it's people will soon be overthrown. When you give the people more freedom to protest, organise, mass communicate easily etc, you also have to add equal amounts of monitoring and restrictions to make sure that next movement to overthrow the government can't pick up speed without you catching it.
A government controlled by its people, instead of controlling its people, doesn't need to worry about being overthrown.
The entire point is being able to tell people what to do for your own profit.
It's a lot easier if you pretend you are doing it for the subject's benefit as it reduces the resistance to rule immensely. But you don't want to let that go too far or they start getting a big head and start thinking that paying you billions of dollars is optional.
Re: US border forces are seizing Americans' phone data and storing it for 15 years
#24Earlier quoted context omitted.
Quoted post unavailable.
Wow, it's almost like "human rights" are a cultural/political/ideological construct and not a legalistic one, and people might have varying differing opinions of what those rights are. And that there might be room in a democratic society for discussion of this, what is most just and sensible, and how we might accommodate a changing world situation. But no... the legal categories of border rights are immutable and con…
Except of course, they're not, since the whole concept of restricting movement into the US didn't really being until about 1917 - before that you pretty much just showed up. (I know you know this, I'm just re-enforcing your point.)
Re: US border forces are seizing Americans' phone data and storing it for 15 years
#25The way US treats the migrants is human rights violation at the border. Now add this to the pile of atrocities committed by the border patrol and ICE. It's high time we should consider open border.
These things are happening from some years now and besides some isolated reports everybody seems very happy.
Re: US border forces are seizing Americans' phone data and storing it for 15 years
#26The way US treats the migrants is human rights violation at the border. Now add this to the pile of atrocities committed by the border patrol and ICE. It's high time we should consider open border.
I'd like to see a country experiment with an open-but-chargable border. Ie. You pay a substantial fee for permission to cross the border. Once the fee is paid, it's unlimited border crossings for life. For example the fee could be $5000 + 5% of your total wealth. The fee reduces immigration and limits it to the rich, who you probably wanted to allow in anyway. And it costs about what people traffickers currently char…
[1] https://www.dw.com/en/eu-threatens-legal-action-over-maltas-...
Re: US border forces are seizing Americans' phone data and storing it for 15 years
#27on another note: lets talk about how one would go about keeping ones privacy intact aka having a party in the capitol.
1. will they be able to get into my cryptrooted pinephone / hdd in those 5 days? 2. if not will this only make them more angry and privacy penetrating?
Re: US border forces are seizing Americans' phone data and storing it for 15 years
#28I'm not sure I missed something, the title says "Americans" but I couldn't find an elaboration on exactly _who_ is subject to these searches. The ACLU [0] seems to contend that, at least, US citizens are not subject to these measures. [0]: https://www.aclu.org/know-your-rights/what-do-when-encounter...
From reading the directive it appears as though they don’t have an exemption for Americans: https://www.dhs.gov/sites/default/files/publications/PIA-CBP... Of course the official response is what you would expect: “CBP officials declined, however, to answer questions about how many Americans’ phone records are in the database, how many searches have been run or how long the practice has gone on, saying it has made no…
But as a practical matter most people don't want to spend an extra hour or hours or even extra minutes going through a more detailed search for contraband or whatever else. Most don't want to, aren't ready for and/or can't afford having electronic devices held for days/weeks before getting them back. A lot of people simply don't know their rights. So without an explicit exemption a lot of Americans undoubtedly would submit "voluntarily".
So the ACLU isn't wrong (and their actual page is appropriately more nuanced [0]): Americans aren't "subject" in the legal sense to this, or to any other questions beyond what's needed to establish citizenship. Having done so they may politely insist on entry and refuse anything else, demand to see a supervisor if an agent persists in unconstitutional questioning, submit any property required while in response demanding receipts and pursuing complaints or legal action afterwards (or both), and at the end of the day the CBP must put up or shut up: let them through or arrest them, and for the latter will have to meet the legal standard and it'll all play out domestically. But at the same time the financial and other burdens this imposes are very real and serious.
Best practice would be to go as "clean" through the border as possible, preferably with a dedicated phone that only has minimum necessary travel and navigation data on it and nothing else, no logging into any personal accounts of any kind, no bookmarks or the like, and cheap enough to not care about losing it. Then one can just let border agents look through whatever as much as they'd like, or let them take it and just write it off. Not everyone can or knows to even consider that possibility though. And of course the vast majority never have a problem, so it's insurance against a "black swan event" for the average person (those who suspect they'll be subject to heightened scrutiny legally or not may already do this). It's valuable to note both the exact state of the law and when the practical effect is different.
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0: ACLU: "If you are a U.S. citizen, you need only answer questions establishing your identity and citizenship, although refusing to answer routine questions about the nature and purpose of your travel could result in delay and/or further inspection." Or later "U.S. citizens have the right to enter the United States, so if you are a U.S. citizen and the officers’ questions become intrusive, you can decline to answer those questions, but you should be aware that doing so may result in delay and/or further inspection".
So the ACLU does acknowledge a practical cost to insisting on your rights, they aren't merely blindly saying "not subject".
Re: US border forces are seizing Americans' phone data and storing it for 15 years
#29Is there any significant effort in progress to combat this practice? I see that EFF has some old articles on the topic but I don't see anything current.
Much of it's quite silly in the era of technology and current society scales anyways where most the nonsense they could be concerned about being on your personal phone in terms of data can be conducted right inside the border without ever leaving. So the excuses for cloning phones and archiving data outside of another loophole that let's them spy on US citizens are pretty limited. Anything on your phone they could be concerned about can be archived, encrypted, and tucked away somewhere on the internet that's far less tracable. So what information do you really need? Outside of the really stupid criminals (who will eventually learn to be more sophisticated and evade these approaches), what do you expect to catch?
Preventing this practice should be a no brainer.