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Fliers Must Turn Off Devices, but It’s Not Clear Why

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271–280 of 301 posts

Re: Fliers Must Turn Off Devices, but It’s Not Clear Why

#271

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I'd imagine the screaming, flailing, flickering lights, smoke, and vibrations would do a decent job of getting people to look up from their iPhones. That's not the point. The fact that people have items out (and are possibly blocking exit rows etc), and are not fully aware of the events leading up to the situation is likely to have some impact on the eventual outcome. > None of those restrictions are in place to ma…

> That's not the point. The fact that people have items out (and are possibly blocking exit rows etc), and are not fully aware of the events leading up to the situation is likely to have some impact on the eventual outcome. Books and magazines present the same problems as a Kindle. So does a sleeping passenger. Safety should be taken as seriously as possible, but the inconsistent application of the rules only implies…

On the other hand, I believe Emerson said something pithy about consistently minding your hobgoblins (or something like that). Or, as hackers are more likely to put it: "The 90% solution is usually your best bet."

That said, if you you really do want to have them take away books and magazines and force everyone to stay awake during takeoff and landing, feel free to write a letter to the FAA.

Re: Fliers Must Turn Off Devices, but It’s Not Clear Why

#272

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How many airports make you spend an hour or two going through security? When flying, I usually spend an hour or two in total at the airport, but that includes check-in, security, waiting for and boarding plane, then de-planing and sometimes waiting for luggage. Not to mention the transport time to and from the airports. Security and safety is a pretty insignificant part of that time, and waiting in line at the airpor…

Israel. No, really. Especially iff - you are leaving the country (...) - you are a foreigner (that is: Everything but a citizen) Everybody around me (including the airport) tells me to arrive ~2.5 (some say 2. Some 3) hours early. The procedure consists of 1. waiting in line forever, waiting for the luggage to be scanned 2. a passport check in that line, asking you questions about where you're from, where you stayed,…

Imho this is better then

- Taking off shoes

- Going through scanner-of-the-day

- Can't take any liquids on the plane.

And same procedure applies also to Israelis as well not only to visitors.

Re: Fliers Must Turn Off Devices, but It’s Not Clear Why

#273

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Could you explain to what degree incidents of unexpected interference result in dangerous failure modes? Is that sort of follow-up analysis done?

I would hesitate to use the term "dangerous failure modes." The danger generally stems from interference with key avionics during critical phases of flight. For example, if your ILS starts acting wacky right in the middle of an approach in actual IMC, you've got a problem. Likewise, if your radios become unusable due to noise anywhere in the terminal area, you've got a problem. Generally, this sort of thing is caught…

"Once the interference has been discovered ... the plane doesn't fly again until it can pass an EMC SOFT."

Yet, turning off consumer electronics is enforced by the honor system? Is there something else going on that makes consumer electronics unlikely sources of interference that would justify this lazy approach to safety? Why aren't all of these devices confiscated and locked in Faraday cages?

It just strikes me as odd that failure to pass an EMC SOFT grounds the plane until the issue is debugged, but then they just allow an random passenger to bring any random radio aboard just so long as they promise/remember to turn it off during critical phases of the flight.

That example may sound highly unlikely, but it does happen.

So highly unlikely that an honor system approach is justified?

Re: Fliers Must Turn Off Devices, but It’s Not Clear Why

#274
post #8

There is actually a very logical, sensible reason to have everyone power off and stow their devices during takeoff and landing, and this story disappointingly failed to cover it: By far the most likely time for any accidents or incidents to occur is during takeoffs and landings. If everyone has 15 objects out and is busily typing away, it's going to be tht much more difficult for flight attendants to get everyone's a…

Another logical and sensible reason:

In the event of an emergency, that laptop or iPad is likely to stop being a productivity tool and start being a projectile. Just like the carry-on bags they also require you to stow.

Re: Fliers Must Turn Off Devices, but It’s Not Clear Why

#275
Nobody is entirely sure how aircraft wings fly - ask 3 aerodynamicists and you get three different answers.

Switching off your phone is a major pain in the butt - a real sacrifice for the modern traveller and yet has no obvious causal link to the performance of the aircraft.

So obviously it serves a ritual purpose. Turning off your phone is a sacrifice to the great sky god who holds up the wings during flight.

See also my theory on "turning it off and on again to appease the god that is windows"

Re: Fliers Must Turn Off Devices, but It’s Not Clear Why

#276

The flight I was on last week mentioned they had some sort of sensor that picked up 8 devices that were still on, and they waited for everyone to turn them off before taking off, so I think they do know if people "forget" to turn them off.

Well, my wife always forgets to airplane-mode or turn off her phone on flights... and takeoff/landing makes her crabby so I've given up trying to remind her (esp. when there are no negative personal consequences after a dozen of such instances).

I'm sure she's not the only one.

Re: Fliers Must Turn Off Devices, but It’s Not Clear Why

#277

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would hesitate to use the term "dangerous failure modes." The danger generally stems from interference with key avionics during critical phases of flight. For example, if your ILS starts acting wacky right in the middle of an approach in actual IMC, you've got a problem. Likewise, if your radios become unusable due to noise anywhere in the terminal area, you've got a problem. Generally, this sort of thing is caught…

"Once the interference has been discovered ... the plane doesn't fly again until it can pass an EMC SOFT." Yet, turning off consumer electronics is enforced by the honor system? Is there something else going on that makes consumer electronics unlikely sources of interference that would justify this lazy approach to safety? Why aren't all of these devices confiscated and locked in Faraday cages? It just strikes me as…

First, it's not just an "honor system," as there is generally at least some effort at enforcement on the part of the flight attendants. I have personally had the experience of having a flight attendant ask me to put away my kindle because I wasn't paying attention to the announcements.

As I've explained elsewhere in this topic, aviation mishaps are almost always the result of multiple factors, where if any one factor had been removed the mishap would not have occurred. "Passenger with unauthorized active RF transmitter" could be one source, but it's probably not going to cause a mishap alone.

In aviation we define "risk" as a combination of probability and severity. You can drive down the risk for a particular hazard by either lowering the probability or lowering the severity. The only way to completely eliminate risk is to not fly, so every flight involves accepting some level of risk. It's really a question of residual risk you're willing to accept balanced against the costs (financial and otherwise) incurred by attempts to further reduce the risk. Several people in this topic have discussed the costs of just the current system of having everyone turn off their phones during critical phases of flight, and complaining that the FAA doesn't apparently care about such things. I disagree with them--if the FAA truly didn't care, they would do exactly what you say: confiscate all electronics at the gate and lock them in a shielded box.

>It just strikes me as odd that failure to pass an EMC SOFT grounds the plane until the issue is debugged, but then they just allow an random passenger to bring any random radio aboard just so long as they promise/remember to turn it off during critical phases of the flight.

Keep in mind that I'm flying in a developmental test environment. That means that we're dealing with a lot of stuff that has never flown before, or are using it in ways it has never been used before. Because of the nature of what we're doing, we already have a lot of risk baked into our flights that an ordinary flight does not have, so we tend to be a lot more conservative about the risk factors that we can control.

[EDIT to add quote for context]

Re: Fliers Must Turn Off Devices, but It’s Not Clear Why

#278

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The FAA/TSA alway justify things in terms of "safety" and "security", but never calculate the massive costs associated with seizing billions in toiletries and productivity. Let's calculate that. There are about 800 million[0] passengers on domestic and foreign owned airlines in the US market, with many people flying more than once per year. Each person is taxed between 1-2 hours in terms of "safety" regulations, rang…

How many airports make you spend an hour or two going through security? When flying, I usually spend an hour or two in total at the airport, but that includes check-in, security, waiting for and boarding plane, then de-planing and sometimes waiting for luggage. Not to mention the transport time to and from the airports. Security and safety is a pretty insignificant part of that time, and waiting in line at the airpor…

Two hours total? I wish I could do as well.

When I fly (as infrequently as possible), I have to budget at least 5.5 hours from my front door to boarding the plane. Here's my time budget based on 10 years of flying out of New York City from Newark (and occasionally JFK)

  |-----------+----------------------------|
  | Time (hr) | Activity                   |
  |-----------+----------------------------|
  |       1   | Drive to airport           |
  |       0.5 | Find parking               |
  |       0.5 | Shuttle to Terminal        |
  |-----------+----------------------------|
  |       2   | ** Sub total **            |
  |-----------+----------------------------|
  |       1   | Check luggage              |
  |       1.5 | Security                   |
  |       0.5 | To gate                    |
  |       0.5 | Wait at Gate               |
  |-----------+----------------------------|
  |       3.5 | ** Sub total **            |
  |-----------+----------------------------|
  |       5.5 | ** Total **                |
  |-----------+----------------------------|
Hmm. Strange to get downvoted for this. What about my post made you think it was unworthy or inappropriate to the discussion?

Re: Fliers Must Turn Off Devices, but It’s Not Clear Why

#279
post #272

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Israel. No, really. Especially iff - you are leaving the country (...) - you are a foreigner (that is: Everything but a citizen) Everybody around me (including the airport) tells me to arrive ~2.5 (some say 2. Some 3) hours early. The procedure consists of 1. waiting in line forever, waiting for the luggage to be scanned 2. a passport check in that line, asking you questions about where you're from, where you stayed,…

Imho this is better then - Taking off shoes - Going through scanner-of-the-day - Can't take any liquids on the plane. And same procedure applies also to Israelis as well not only to visitors.

Hmm.. Hope you didn't take offense with what I wrote. I see no personal insult anywhere in that text and certainly didn't intend any. That said:

- I had to remove my shoes at the Ben Gurion airport. Granted, only once so far

- Agreed (scanner)

- Braindead liquid rules still apply (maybe softened vs. the US? I cannot judge that)

And while Israelis have to do the same thing: If I travel with a coworker (we usually arrive separately) they pass all tests right away and have a couple of shortcuts (especially concerning passport control, inbound, for example). My experience with tourists, visitors and my own trips says that - well - foreigners start on the 'Might be a terrorist' scale at 3 out of 10, just because.

Re: Fliers Must Turn Off Devices, but It’s Not Clear Why

#280
post #8

There is actually a very logical, sensible reason to have everyone power off and stow their devices during takeoff and landing, and this story disappointingly failed to cover it: By far the most likely time for any accidents or incidents to occur is during takeoffs and landings. If everyone has 15 objects out and is busily typing away, it's going to be tht much more difficult for flight attendants to get everyone's a…

This isn't even the least bit correct. I don't know why it is voted up so much.
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