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The Koh-i-Noor diamond, and why the British won’t give it back (2017)

smithsonianmag.com

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Re: The Koh-i-Noor diamond, and why the British won’t give it back (2017)

#251

Post by fweimer »

glenngillen wrote: post #213
Grimburger wrote: post #211

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was under the impression that most museums around the world are a cost to governments rather than a boon, there's probably a few exceptions. People who are travel to see the crown jewels are going whether or not this one is there with it.

Especially when most museums and galleries in London (all of the UK?) are free to enter. It’s usually only touring/limited display special features that have a modest fee to see them.

A ticket to the Tower costs 30 pounds: https://www.hrp.org.uk/tower-of-london/visit/tickets-and-pri...

Apparently, the Tower is not government property, but belongs to the Crown Estate.

(I suspect the British cannot return the Koh-i-Noor diamond because it's not government property, either.)

Re: The Koh-i-Noor diamond, and why the British won’t give it back (2017)

#253

Post by betwixthewires »

cafed00d wrote: post #212
imgabe wrote: post #176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Civilizations clash. Some win, some lose. Should Gaul go back to the Romans? You would have the Earth remain completely static, and wherever your ancestors happened to evolve into humans that’s where you and your descendants live forever until the end of time? It’s ridiculous. Things change. Move on.

That’s a dangerous precedent to set. You’re essentially egging on today’s generation to “clash back”. Colonialism isn’t the same as ancestral predator prey mechanics. Or, that we should reverse every unjust war waged in the world. Some are just blatantly brutal. Simple. We owe it to our species to recognize mistake, apologize and make repairs. Would Britain really say “it’s ridiculous. Things change. Move on” for for…

It is literally the precedent that has already been set. Colonialism is exactly the same as ancestral predator prey dynamics (whatever you mean by that).

We do recognize, apologize and make repairs. This is why Africa, India and southeast Asia are all free, sovereign nations now. Repairs were made.

I always find it funny that Indians venerate the moghuls and vilify the British. They were both foreign invaders that conquered people. At least the British led directly to a much more unified India as it stands today, the concept of a single Indian state is a new one (that was created by the British), India is as much one people as Europe, do you think the Indian government owes reparations to the princely states for forcibly annexing them?

Re: The Koh-i-Noor diamond, and why the British won’t give it back (2017)

#254

Post by betwixthewires »

kamaal wrote: post #191
alephnerd wrote: post #3

Not a fan of the British crown (why are they exempt from taxes during record high inflation) but who should they return the diamond to - Afghanistan (it was the Durranis that looted it from Nader Shah after he looted it from the Mughals), India (Maharaja Ranjit Singh took it as tribute from Shah Shuja after conquering Kashmir from the Durranis), or Pakistan (the Sikh Empire capital was Lahore and the Durrani Empire c…

Nice excuses to not return it back to the last known owners.

The last known owners aren't sovereigns of a nation anymore. And if they wouldn't give it to the ones before them this entire discussion is a sham.

Re: The Koh-i-Noor diamond, and why the British won’t give it back (2017)

#255

Post by markdown »

irrational wrote: post #206
markdown wrote: post #170

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I believe the argument was that it was gifted under duress.

Then why did they say very recently that it was not taken or stolen? They aren’t under duress anymore. They could just have easily said that it was gifted under duress and asked for it back.

It's a nation of over a billion people. The "they" you speak of doesn't speak for everyone.

Re: The Koh-i-Noor diamond, and why the British won’t give it back (2017)

#256

Post by atulatul »

Disclaimer: haven't read the parent article. Apologies if the video below is repeat/ mis-information. But it is interesting.

Kohinoor: William Dalrymple https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yJgZf9c6MTQ

Kohinoor: Release of the book followed by a discussion featuring William Dalrymple and Anita Anand, in conversation with Sagarika Ghose

Re: The Koh-i-Noor diamond, and why the British won’t give it back (2017)

#257

Post by phs318u »

onetimeusename wrote: post #210
vgel wrote: post #189

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I kind of wonder if repatriation only matters when the artifact came from non western countries to western ones. No. There's also been a lot of noise over the Elgin Marbles (stolen from Greece, mentioned in the article). The Koh-i-Noor has just been in the news lately because of the death of the queen and it being part of the crown jewels.

That effort and debate of repatriation of the Elgin Marbles has been going on for centuries and I think it's debatable if Greece (or the Ottomon Empire) is even part of the western nations. So, kindly, I disagree that there is any urgency or that repatriation of that artefact is even strictly non political. However, there is a movement to repatriate items taken from non-western nations during colonial times which man…

> debate of repatriation of the Elgin Marbles has been going on for centuries

> I think it's debatable if Greece (or the Ottomon Empire) is even part of the western nations.

The Parthenon marbles are over two millennia old. They were looted by Elgin just over two centuries ago.

Greece's history stretches back at least four millennia (since the Mycenaeans - considered the first Greek peoples). The Ottoman empire occupied Greece for a bit under four centuries.

You're likely to get a fairer hearing for your points if you don't pepper them with errors.

Re: The Koh-i-Noor diamond, and why the British won’t give it back (2017)

#258

Post by concordDance »

UncleMeat wrote: post #168
snarf21 wrote: post #164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or the money from it being on display in the museum could be split as a charitable donation to all the countries involved. Seems like a win-win-win-win-win.

People screech in terror and hide their wallets anytime the word "reparations" is said. I don't think colonial empires are going to be sending a considerable amount of plundered money back any time soon.

Many people don't think states are first class entities and what matters are individual people. So why should Alice give tribute (probably via taxes given to the central gov) to Bob for crimes done by someone she's never even heard of that were done to someone with only the most tenuous relationship with Bob? Particularly when Alice may not even be related to the criminal and has not benefited from the crime (heck, her parents probably immigrated from another state) and when Bob's ancestors did the exact same thing and are paying no reparations.

Historic reparations (beyond 100 years or so) fundamentally requires you to ignore the individual and treat people as being part of homogenous groups categorized according to some probably highly subjective traits. Its fundamentally evil.

Re: The Koh-i-Noor diamond, and why the British won’t give it back (2017)

#259

Post by concordDance »

UncleMeat wrote: post #152
twblalock wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

David Frum's new Atlantic article shows a similar situation in Nigeria: https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2022/10/benin-b... Basically the Nigerian federal government, the state government of Benin, and the descendants of the kings of Benin who originally owned the stolen Benin bronzes all think they should be the ones to whom the bronzes should be returned -- and in the case of the current king, he assert…

Okay. But that's surely not a reason why the Brits get to keep it. "This is too hard, let's give up and keep bringing in tourist money to our museums through these artifacts" feels like an awfully convenient excuse.

Surely "it brings joy in this museum and isnt causing violence in Niger" is a good reason to keep it?

Re: The Koh-i-Noor diamond, and why the British won’t give it back (2017)

#260

Post by Bayart »

nradov wrote: post #234
osrec wrote: post #230

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your comment is somewhat meaningless in the context. But yes, in general, I believe that if you commit or benefit from atrocities, you should be held accountable. Even if it was your grandfather that murdered people and you inherit the wealth he looted, you should at the very least give that wealth back once you realise that it was wrong, especially if the people you looted from are dying from lack of resources. Also…

[flagged]

Considering a lot of the richest people in Britain still have Norman names, I think the « French reparations » is something the British should ask from their own aristocracy.
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