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Godot 4 Beta 1

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Re: Godot 4 Beta 1

#61

Post by TulliusCicero »

sph wrote: post #34
throw10920 wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Optimization levels of many newer games are terrible. Low-poly, visually simplistic games like Fortnite, Risk of Rain 2, Valheim, and Deep Rock Galactic barely run on a friend's computer (that was made only 5 years ago). Visually more complex games like League of Legends run buttery smooth on the exact same hardware. (ironically, he says that Valorant, made by a non-Epic company, apparently runs significantly better…

> Fortnite, Risk of Rain 2, Valheim, and Deep Rock Galactic Those games are low poly but NOT visually simplistic. Memory tends to play tricks and we remember older games looking better than they actually did, so we imagine lower polygons = 2005 tech game. Those games you've mention run on advanced and heavyweight fragment and vertex shaders to create a specific look (cartoony graphics in Fortnite, there's a million e…

They responded to my comment: it's an integrated GPU, and not one of the decent ones.

The CPU is an ultrabook-class i3 too, of course games play terribly. This is a surprise to exactly zero people.

Re: Godot 4 Beta 1

#62

Post by throw10920 »

TulliusCicero wrote: post #60
throw10920 wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Core i3-5015U with Intel integrated 5500. Yes, that's a low-end processor. No, it doesn't matter, because the fact is that there are several other games that look better and run much better on the same hardware.

C'mon man, of course an iGPU is gonna do poorly with PC games. It absolutely does matter that integrated GPU's have usually been terrible at running games, and that one is no exception.

> It absolutely does matter

You literally did not read my comment.

I just explained why it doesn't matter:

> the fact is that there are several other games that look better and run much better on the same hardware

...and you completely ignored it without providing a single counterargument.

That is existence proof that that hardware, weak as it is, is more than capable of providing that performance for that graphics quality.

Re: Godot 4 Beta 1

#63

Post by throw10920 »

TulliusCicero wrote: post #61
sph wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Fortnite, Risk of Rain 2, Valheim, and Deep Rock Galactic Those games are low poly but NOT visually simplistic. Memory tends to play tricks and we remember older games looking better than they actually did, so we imagine lower polygons = 2005 tech game. Those games you've mention run on advanced and heavyweight fragment and vertex shaders to create a specific look (cartoony graphics in Fortnite, there's a million e…

They responded to my comment: it's an integrated GPU, and not one of the decent ones. The CPU is an ultrabook-class i3 too, of course games play terribly. This is a surprise to exactly zero people.

And, as I explained, this line of reasoning is both fallacious and completely irrelevant[1].

[1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32859519

Re: Godot 4 Beta 1

#64

Post by TulliusCicero »

throw10920 wrote: post #62
TulliusCicero wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

C'mon man, of course an iGPU is gonna do poorly with PC games. It absolutely does matter that integrated GPU's have usually been terrible at running games, and that one is no exception.

> It absolutely does matter You literally did not read my comment. I just explained why it doesn't matter: > the fact is that there are several other games that look better and run much better on the same hardware ...and you completely ignored it without providing a single counterargument. That is existence proof that that hardware, weak as it is, is more than capable of providing that performance for that graphics q…

I read it, your complaint is still just silly.

Optimization certainly varies across games, but when you're working on an iGPU, you're probably playing on a particularly low level of quality that yeah, developers don't spend a lot of time optimizing for, because relatively few of their intended customers are running on a crappy old integrated GPU. That doesn't necessarily mean that the game is "unoptimized" as a whole though, it could be just that it's unoptimized for very low end systems, because they focused more on better performance at higher quality settings.

In Deep Rock Galactic's case, while it's relatively low poly, it's still quite a pretty game, it's really not that barebones, so I wouldn't expect it to run well on such a weak CPU and GPU, and to expect otherwise is silly.

Re: Godot 4 Beta 1

#65

Post by TulliusCicero »

throw10920 wrote: post #63
TulliusCicero wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They responded to my comment: it's an integrated GPU, and not one of the decent ones. The CPU is an ultrabook-class i3 too, of course games play terribly. This is a surprise to exactly zero people.

And, as I explained, this line of reasoning is both fallacious and completely irrelevant[1]. [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32859519

It's highly relevant. Devs aren't obligated to optimize for your friend's extremely weak computer. They may well be optimizing for a median gaming PC instead.

Re: Godot 4 Beta 1

#66

Post by notsapiensatall »

sph wrote: post #34
throw10920 wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Optimization levels of many newer games are terrible. Low-poly, visually simplistic games like Fortnite, Risk of Rain 2, Valheim, and Deep Rock Galactic barely run on a friend's computer (that was made only 5 years ago). Visually more complex games like League of Legends run buttery smooth on the exact same hardware. (ironically, he says that Valorant, made by a non-Epic company, apparently runs significantly better…

> Fortnite, Risk of Rain 2, Valheim, and Deep Rock Galactic Those games are low poly but NOT visually simplistic. Memory tends to play tricks and we remember older games looking better than they actually did, so we imagine lower polygons = 2005 tech game. Those games you've mention run on advanced and heavyweight fragment and vertex shaders to create a specific look (cartoony graphics in Fortnite, there's a million e…

The effects punch below their weight in those games, though. I like to call it "Unity Syndrome", but it applies to any widely-adopted engine.

Well-made video games focus on the experience of playing them. Visuals, audio, setting, gameplay, user interfaces, they're all made with the same goal.

In a fast action game, you'll want menus to get out of the way quickly, dialogue that can be delivered while the player is moving, particle effects designed more like fireworks than sparklers, etc.

In a slow-paced story game, you'll have more leeway to let players stop and smell the roses. You'll want to pay attention to different details, make cues last longer, etc.

Open-world games need more attention to dynamic level of detail and story progressions. The list goes on.

When people wrote their own engines, these assumptions were baked in from the start and the engine was developed and tweaked according to the game being made. When you shoehorn your idea into a general-purpose off-the-shelf solution, you end up making more compromises on things like performance and verisimilitude.

You can see it in the default shaders/effects that many modern budget games use, but my favorite example of this is actually The Witcher. The first game in that series used Bioware's Aurora engine, which was designed to simulate d20 games like Dungeons & Dragons.

Re: Godot 4 Beta 1

#67

Post by throw10920 »

TulliusCicero wrote: post #65
throw10920 wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And, as I explained, this line of reasoning is both fallacious and completely irrelevant[1]. [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32859519

It's highly relevant. Devs aren't obligated to optimize for your friend's extremely weak computer. They may well be optimizing for a median gaming PC instead.

> It's highly relevant.

It's completely irrelevant when the conversation is "is this game poorly optimized?" - nobody ever talked about "obligation", that's a strawman you pulled out of nowhere.

The actual topic of conversation is "what games are poorly optimized". "Poorly optimized" means "making bad use of available resources" - which is irrespective of the amount of resources available.

You can make the argument that the devs are making the business decision of intentionally leaving their games poorly-optimized because they don't think that that'll recoup the cost of optimization (which is likely what's happening) - but that still makes those games poorly optimized, by definition.

Re: Godot 4 Beta 1

#68

Post by xdrosenheim »

moffkalast wrote: post #46
dopu wrote: post #3

HN hug of death? godotengine.org is offline for me at the moment. Regardless, really looking forward to trying it out! Here it is on the wayback machine: https://web.archive.org/web/20220915181526/https://godotengi...

What, the whole five of us? Impossible.

Ah, we are dozens. At least.

Re: Godot 4 Beta 1

#69

Post by throw10920 »

TulliusCicero wrote: post #64
throw10920 wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It absolutely does matter You literally did not read my comment. I just explained why it doesn't matter: > the fact is that there are several other games that look better and run much better on the same hardware ...and you completely ignored it without providing a single counterargument. That is existence proof that that hardware, weak as it is, is more than capable of providing that performance for that graphics q…

I read it, your complaint is still just silly. Optimization certainly varies across games, but when you're working on an iGPU, you're probably playing on a particularly low level of quality that yeah, developers don't spend a lot of time optimizing for, because relatively few of their intended customers are running on a crappy old integrated GPU. That doesn't necessarily mean that the game is "unoptimized" as a whole…

If you had read it, you probably would have actually responded to the points I made. You did not respond to the points that I made. Therefore, it's more likely that you simply did not read it.

> your complaint is still just silly

The classic "dismiss the argument without actually making a logical point".

> That doesn't necessarily mean that the game is "unoptimized" as a whole though

I never said "unoptimized" - don't put words in my mouth. I said "poorly optimized" - and if a game makes poor use of its resources on low-end hardware when there are other games that make better use (under similar economic constraints), and there are a significant number of actual players on lower-end hardware, then yes, it's poorly-optimized.

> it's still quite a pretty game, it's really not that barebones, so I wouldn't expect it to run well on such a weak CPU and GPU, and to expect otherwise is silly

I've already responded to this argument with the case example of Valorant. Not only is the expectation not "silly", but there's, again, an existing counter-example. Expecting program to run on hardware that is capable of running them is not unreasonable at all.

The people who think that it's ok to waste the vast amount of a computer's potential are part of the problem of ever-more-bloated software that's wasting power and contributing to carbon emissions through poor use of available resources.

Re: Godot 4 Beta 1

#70

Post by TulliusCicero »

throw10920 wrote: post #67
TulliusCicero wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's highly relevant. Devs aren't obligated to optimize for your friend's extremely weak computer. They may well be optimizing for a median gaming PC instead.

> It's highly relevant. It's completely irrelevant when the conversation is "is this game poorly optimized?" - nobody ever talked about "obligation", that's a strawman you pulled out of nowhere. The actual topic of conversation is "what games are poorly optimized". "Poorly optimized" means "making bad use of available resources" - which is irrespective of the amount of resources available. You can make the argument t…

Optimization isn't a one size fits all thing. Poorly optimized for very low end hardware, sure, I have no trouble believing that. That's not the same thing as being poorly optimized in general.

And realistically, even much older games were not known for running well without dedicated GPU's on old computers.

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