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Coding - the new Latin

bbc.co.uk

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Re: Coding - the new Latin

#31

Post by jlind »

bad_user wrote: post #28
tpatke wrote: post #19

When I think about all of the problems with the education system I am not sure that "teaching coding" would top that list. The bottom line is that coding is a profession which is not suited to everyone. I remember being a TA at university in the late 90s when IT was booming. Everyone wanted to learn to program. Once they learned enough to realize it meant sitting in front of a computer alone all day - most moved on t…

Does everyone really need to know about recursion? Does everyone really need to know the basics of calculus? Or how about genetics? Does everyone really need to know French? I had classes for the above in my high-school. In fact I can't think of any class I took in high-school that isn't useless to a large portion of high-school graduates. And I can't think of many examples that are more useful than grasping the conc…

Maybe they do, or maybe they don't. In many cases, I'd argue that it's more about teaching how to think and learn, rather than "an understanding calculus will be required for everything you do in the rest of school / career / life"

Re: Coding - the new Latin

#32

Post by bad_user »

jlind wrote: post #31
bad_user wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Does everyone really need to know about recursion? Does everyone really need to know the basics of calculus? Or how about genetics? Does everyone really need to know French? I had classes for the above in my high-school. In fact I can't think of any class I took in high-school that isn't useless to a large portion of high-school graduates. And I can't think of many examples that are more useful than grasping the conc…

Maybe they do, or maybe they don't. In many cases, I'd argue that it's more about teaching how to think and learn, rather than "an understanding calculus will be required for everything you do in the rest of school / career / life"

Well, if judging from that perspective, I don't think how anyone can argue against teaching programming in high-school.

Re: Coding - the new Latin

#33

Post by derleth »

tapertaper wrote: post #30
tpatke wrote: post #19

When I think about all of the problems with the education system I am not sure that "teaching coding" would top that list. The bottom line is that coding is a profession which is not suited to everyone. I remember being a TA at university in the late 90s when IT was booming. Everyone wanted to learn to program. Once they learned enough to realize it meant sitting in front of a computer alone all day - most moved on t…

Everyone who spends their day on a computer would get a productivity boost if they learned to code.

Everyone who spends at least part of their day interacting with programmable devices would have their lives improved if they learned to code.

Now... how many people in the industrialized world don't spend at least part of their day interacting with programmable devices?

Re: Coding - the new Latin

#34

Post by derleth »

itmag wrote: post #20
d4nt wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

During sixth form college (ages 16-18, in the UK) one of the philosophy lecturers started a course with the same sort of goals. It covered critical thinking, written communication, logic, a bit of psychology etc. The 12 or so hours I spent in those lectures were among the most valuable hours I invested in anything, ever.

Yeah, it's an obvious patch to society with tremendous potential for trickle down benefit. Why isn't it being done?

Honestly? It would likely be too much fun.

There is still, to this day, a large number of people who think education needs to be repetitive rote drill in order to be... real, or legitimate, or even 'useful' by some warped definition of that concept.

It's tied into the notion of hazing, or "If I had to waste my years in school tied to a desk memorizing stuff I don't use, so should you! Builds character!"

And, finally, the idea that if the next generation does it, too, maybe your time doing it wasn't simply wasted.

Re: Coding - the new Latin

#35

Post by derleth »

m0nty wrote: post #22
Jach wrote: post #2

I think that's a horrible phrase. The first thing that comes to mind is: "Coding isn't dead!", then: "But coding has direct benefits, not hand-waving indirect benefits like 'you will get better at English!'" I get that it's meant to convey that if you can't code even a little, you're an uneducated person, much like in older times people who didn't know Latin (and Greek) were uneducated. That's a fine sentiment to hav…

Apparently Latin is a very popular subject in schools. IF that popularity is genuine, it refutes the idea that children are always looking out for the easiest option, which bodes well for CS in schools because (if it's done correctly) it will be challenging. Personally I have my misgivings about the phrase "The New Latin" but I have strong objections to the "Hey kids! Everything is fun, fun, fun!" approach which is s…

> Hey kids! Everything is fun, fun, fun!

Programming is fun if it's taught well, which is why it must always be taught poorly, if at all. After all, education and play are two mutually-exclusive concepts for humans, like they are for all somewhat-intelligent mammals.

Re: Coding - the new Latin

#36

Post by itmag »

itmag wrote: post #26
kabdib wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I never had a problem with this, and my first few languages were BASIC, assembly and C. LISP came naturally to me a few years later. I think the problem is that people are /used/ to imperative programs, and aren't given real practice in functional programming. There are also FP zealots, some of whom maintain that learning IP first causes damage. I think this attitude is toxic and doesn't actually help their "cause" (…

Well, FP is more elegant. But sometimes you just need a chainsword.

I will not be silenced by the functional agenda, dammit. Sometimes the right tool is imperative programming :p

Re: Coding - the new Latin

#37

Post by randomdata »

tpatke wrote: post #19

When I think about all of the problems with the education system I am not sure that "teaching coding" would top that list. The bottom line is that coding is a profession which is not suited to everyone. I remember being a TA at university in the late 90s when IT was booming. Everyone wanted to learn to program. Once they learned enough to realize it meant sitting in front of a computer alone all day - most moved on t…

> Does everyone really need to know about recursion?

Recursion is taught in gym class through the game of dodgeball. Consider the following C-like pseudocode:

    void throw(int *ball, int hits)
    {
        if (hits
The question then becomes, do people need to learn specific computer languages, or is teaching the underlying concepts in abstract ways enough?

Re: Coding - the new Latin

#39

Post by tezza »

Who here studied Latin?

Well I did Latin for 6 years in High School (Sydney Boys fyi). I find this title "Coding - the new Latin" as a bizarre way of inducing people to learn to code.

Latin is dead. Very dead. Back in my day Latin was billed as "The Fastest Growing Language", but that never transpired.

Now if you want to read Caesar, Virgil, Catulus et al, then fine learn Latin. But Latin is no longer the ticket to an elite private members club that it once was.

Latin - is also a language that you exclusively read. There is so little creative element to it. One furthers oneself in Latin by re/interpreting existing works.

Coding - is a creative craft where you take instructions and make something that never existed before.

It would be better to strap coding onto something intensely creative:

  Technical Drawing
  Metal Work
  Fine Art, Sculpture

Re: Coding - the new Latin

#40

Post by derleth »

tezza wrote: post #39

Who here studied Latin? Well I did Latin for 6 years in High School (Sydney Boys fyi). I find this title "Coding - the new Latin" as a bizarre way of inducing people to learn to code. Latin is dead. Very dead. Back in my day Latin was billed as "The Fastest Growing Language", but that never transpired. Now if you want to read Caesar, Virgil, Catulus et al, then fine learn Latin. But Latin is no longer the ticket to a…

> Coding - is a creative craft where you take instructions and make something that never existed before.

Mathematics - is a creative craft where you take a formal system (a structure purely of the mind) and create something (a new theorem, an addition to the structure) that never existed before.

That is what mathematics is. That is why there are math majors. If it were all rote nonsense, computers would be doing all of it by now; computers are cheaper than people for rote nonsense, after all.

So, to tie this back to the topic, teaching programming correctly would be much easier if we taught mathematics correctly.

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