Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Startups Are Hard. So Work More, Cry Less, And Quit All The Whining

uncrunched.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

111–120 of 131 posts

Re: Startups Are Hard. So Work More, Cry Less, And Quit All The Whining

#111

Post by danssig »

kamaal wrote: post #105
moocow01 wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your basing your argument on the idea that everyone is in some linear race and we will all do an assessment of ourselves and everyone else at the age of 40 to see who is ahead. Unfortunately many of the typically unhappiest people do this and they base their assessment on money and job titles. Success is not just about money and job titles. We all (well atleast some of us) have our own versions. One person who goes h…

I would still say the CEO. As a I CEO I will have all the money in the world to chase any hobby/fun activity I will ever want. Also my kids and family are enjoying luxury and privileges which other families aren't so even they are happy. Also I have time and patience only for one hobby. Most of the time even with a touch schedule I manage to work on my hobby.

Except most people who follow your advice are never going to be CEO. They're going to throw their whole life away chasing this, never to reach it. Other's may get a lot of money exploiting such people though.

Re: Startups Are Hard. So Work More, Cry Less, And Quit All The Whining

#112

Post by danssig »

masklinn wrote: post #32
kayoone wrote: post #15

Some time ago go i read an article about an ex CEO of some biotech firm who wanted to complete a very hard multiple days bike race and trained for over a year. He knew he couldnt keep up with the pros who didnt sleep at all and were nearly killing themselves, instead he tried to get good sleep everyday while the pros raced on. In the morning he ended up overtaking many of the guys that didnt sleep at all and genereal…

At the other end of the choice, there's Cliff Young[0] > In 1983, the 61-year-old potato farmer won the first Westfield Sydney to Melbourne Ultra Marathon (875 kilometres, 544 miles). The race was run between what were then Australia's two largest shopping centres: Westfield Parramatta, in Sydney, and Westfield Doncaster, in Melbourne. Cliff arrived at the start line with overalls and gumboots. He ran at a slow lopin…

Interesting story. Physical labor is totally different than mental labor, but if your business is about doing lots of physical labor doing long hours could make sense.

Re: Startups Are Hard. So Work More, Cry Less, And Quit All The Whining

#113

Post by danssig »

xarien wrote: post #70
dextorious wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"""Sleep needs to be a secondary concern when stacked against a deadline.""" Actually there is only one deadline that matters, and it's called death. If your company is "stacked against deadlines" in order to compete, you're doing it wrong. "Fast time to market" is a rat race for marginal benefits, not a business strategy. Google didn't get #1 because it was first on the market. Neither did Facebook, Microsoft et al.

Honestly, deadlines aren't there to be first to market. Deadlines are there so you can accurately pace / measures yourself. Once deadlines start slipping, it's a slippery slope. At some point, you may have to look at the planning to see if the plan itself is too aggressive given the resource constraints. With that said, I firmly believe that a strong team needs to stand behind deadlines however arbitrary.

>Once deadlines start slipping, it's a slippery slope.

Yes, and once people start doing insane things like working double hours and skipping sleep then the deadline is going to get worse and the finished product will be a train wreck.

I worked somewhere where there was a big push for a deadline. People were put on 12 hour days, 6 days a week for about a year. When they made their release it was one of the biggest disasters in company history (big place). The CIO looked at it and said "we're not giving anyone more time to get their projects done because we've seen that when they have more time the result is crap anyway"....

Re: Startups Are Hard. So Work More, Cry Less, And Quit All The Whining

#114

Post by dextorious »

smilliken wrote: post #82
dextorious wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"""I'm so glad I was pushing 30 before I really became aware of this startup scene. The general impression that comes off, to me at least, is work hard, stop moaning, accept pennies and one day you'll be rich - assuming that unlikely outcome happens and we don't use of the thousand ways possible to screw you out of any riches.""" Startups are tax for people who are good at math, but don't bother checking their odds.

Also consider that successful outcomes aren't distributed evenly; if you're exceptionally talented and work at an exceptionally good company, then it's not about odds, it's about execution. It's only gambling in the way a professional poker player gambles.

Tons of "exceptionally talented" programmers got their respective startups nowhere.

And the "exceptionally good company" -> success, borders on tautology, because how else do you measure an exceptionally good company besides success?

"""It's only gambling in the way a professional poker player gambles"""

Yeah, you influence your fate and all. But poker is even less random than startup success --at least randomness there is constrained, will on a startup you have tons of sources of randomness:

The startup founders, the employees, the economy in general, the society in general (fads, etc), investors, the client pool, you name it...

Re: Startups Are Hard. So Work More, Cry Less, And Quit All The Whining

#115

Post by hugoestr »

kamaal wrote: post #87
harryh wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not that cautionary. If you went to jwz right now and asked him "If you went back in time and, knowing everything you know now about how much pain would be involved, would you sign up with Netscape again?" I bet you he'd say yes. "But who said everything has to be fun? Pain builds character. (Sometimes it builds products, too.)"

>> "But who said everything has to be fun? Pain builds character. (Sometimes it builds products, too.)" Exactly. In fact all fun thing is said to make your position look a little good. Its not good if you depict the path to success as a painful journey. To make your story glorious you need to look like a hero and for that you need depict accomplishments in the most glorious way and make them seem effortless(fun). Ima…

It is not enough. Luck has a lot to do with it. It is so upsetting to believe the role that luck has we come up with these fairy tales that if you just work yourself into an early health problems you will be rewarded with riches. But let's remember the basics, you can work this hard, yet most start up fail.

Re: Startups Are Hard. So Work More, Cry Less, And Quit All The Whining

#116

Post by hugoestr »

tibastral2 wrote: post #55
masklinn wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Though I've known spooky people who seem to be able to get by with not much more than that on a sustained basis. Yes, but these people are (physiologically) the exception not the rule (this characteristic is not uncommon for sailors, for some types of race sailing it's pretty much a base requirement).

You are talking about polyphasic sleep, which when you train and skill is a great tool to sleep less, but I think these guys are not talking about that, they talk about being "la tête dans le guidon" as we say in France => head in the handlebar litteraly, or "sous l'eau" => underwater. It is a myth. Startups are all about creativity. If you don't sleep enough, you are not creative. PERIOD.

Let me add more: not creative, not logical, not coherent. Incapable of being social.

Studies show that chronic lack of sleep is equivalent of being drunk when driving. Do we really want the cognitive equivalent of drunk workers "changing the world"?

Re: Startups Are Hard. So Work More, Cry Less, And Quit All The Whining

#117

Post by caseysoftware »

ChuckMcM wrote: post #93
caseysoftware wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Your a low number employee and your company goes public, woohoo you are rich, but people who work with you and came later and are doing the same job as you are not." You're leaving out risk and experience: * Employee #3 takes more risk than employee #30 who took more risk than employee #300. * More importantly, even if they have the same roles when employee #30 joined, odds are that employee #3 was involved in quite…

"You're leaving out risk and experience:" Don't confuse the 'why' some folks are more handsomely rewarded at a liquidity event, with 'what it does to them.' Here is the situation, person A in a four person cube is a multi-millioniare on paper, person B, C, and D are still unable to come up with a down payment on a house. Person B, "Hey A, what are you doing this weekend?" Person A, "We're flying up to Oregon to go he…

I completely agree that money changes the vast majority of people.. especially if it's a large amount very quickly.

I still think your "similar roles and similar levels of responsibility" point is incomplete. Employee #3 will always have a different relationship with the company - and its leadership - than employee #30. They've been through quite a bit together that #30 was not there for and there will be a different level of trust, authority, etc. It's not a criticism, just a situation.

It's the difference of going to school with the same kid since kindergarten and the new kid getting there in high school. There's quite a bit of history.. good or bad.

Re: Startups Are Hard. So Work More, Cry Less, And Quit All The Whining

#118

Post by itmag »

csmt wrote: post #90
neilk wrote: post #51

This is insane . You realize that all the quotes are from a post called the author describes as a 'cautionary tale'? ( http://www.jwz.org/gruntle/nscpdorm.html ) I think jwz sums it up best in another post, where he talks about the best case scenario: becoming rich from your startup: I've known dozens of instant-millionaires so far (from Netscape as well as other companies), and basically, I don't speak to any of the…

There are three possible outcomes for startups: (1) failure; (2) marginally successful; and (3) enormously successful. In case of (1) and (2) employees hardly make any money, and early employees may make money in case (3). More than 99% startups' outcome is either (1) or (2). I feel startup world is highly skewed in favor of investors and founders. I have worked at a startup and now I would think twice before working…

That's kind of similar to the zero-one-infinity rule:

http://www.catb.org/jargon/html/Z/Zero-One-Infinity-Rule.htm...

Another application of the rule to startups:

http://blog.opportunitycloud.com/2011/06/16/zero-one-infinit...

Re: Startups Are Hard. So Work More, Cry Less, And Quit All The Whining

#119

Post by ahoyhere »

keiferski wrote: post #2

Work hard. Cry less. And realize you’re part of history No, sorry, but you probably aren't. Zynga isn't changing the world and neither are 99.9% of the startups coming out of SV. The over-working culture is exactly that - a culture. It has nothing to do with actual reality, and everything to do with perceived reality. Great, long-term companies aren't built by entrepreneurs who sleep 2 hours a night. P.S.: not gettin…

You don't need to take your health advice from 37s -- the book "The Way We're Working Isn't Working" is basically nothing BUT cited research that shows how overwork hurts everybody & everything, including the employer/project.

Re: Startups Are Hard. So Work More, Cry Less, And Quit All The Whining

#120

Post by ahoyhere »

nostrademons wrote: post #66
DanielBMarkham wrote: post #62

My favorite numbers for startups are that they have a 1-in-20 chance of succeeding. I don't know where I got those numbers from -- seems like I've heard PG use a 1-in-10 chance, but you get the general feel for the situation. You should work in such a way as to acknowledge those numbers. I'm not saying don't work hard -- far from it. Just work as if this is stage 1 of a 20-stage process, each stage lasting a year or…

PG also said that the 1-in-10 chance is an average , across many different people, and individual circumstances may dramatically alter those odds. Some startups are virtually certain to succeed. Others probably have a 1 in a 1000 chance. I think you're better off working really hard for a while - enough to fully explore the problem space you've gotten in - and then taking stock of the situation and learning your less…

Did pg base that statement off research? If so, I'd love to see it. If not… well, why not?
Post reply on HN