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The Trouble with Bright Kids

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Re: The Trouble with Bright Kids

#71

Post by paganel »

itmag wrote: post #53

Many commenters here mention that they were/are really bright but also undisciplined and miserable. This underlines something I've been thinking about a lot: that cognitive style accounts for a big chunk of life's success. Think of the dumb-as-pigshit ladies' man or the happy-as-a-clam soccer mom who has life all figured out or the salesman who pulls in a ton of cash because he's really driven and doesn't give a fuck…

> Then think of the miserable yet brilliant nerd languishing in some dank cave of an apartment because he can't figure life out. Forever Alone...

As one of those nerds in his early 30s living all alone by himself in a 5x5m studio, what's so wrong with "not figuring life out" and instead only caring about what interests you most? :)

Mind you, I used to have a social life until not long ago (when I was still happily married to my soon to be ex-wife), but at some point along the road I read Seneca's "De Brevitate Vitae " (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/De_Brevitate_Vitae_%28Seneca%29) and I realized that much of what I was doing at the time was really meaningless and not what I really wanted to spend my time on. And then my wife did me a ton of good and left me :), but it was for the best, cause as Seneca was saying you cannot buy back time wasted on meaningless pursuits (acquiring riches, high political honors etc.).

Re: The Trouble with Bright Kids

#72

Post by itmag »

paganel wrote: post #71
itmag wrote: post #53

Many commenters here mention that they were/are really bright but also undisciplined and miserable. This underlines something I've been thinking about a lot: that cognitive style accounts for a big chunk of life's success. Think of the dumb-as-pigshit ladies' man or the happy-as-a-clam soccer mom who has life all figured out or the salesman who pulls in a ton of cash because he's really driven and doesn't give a fuck…

> Then think of the miserable yet brilliant nerd languishing in some dank cave of an apartment because he can't figure life out. Forever Alone... As one of those nerds in his early 30s living all alone by himself in a 5x5m studio, what's so wrong with "not figuring life out" and instead only caring about what interests you most? :) Mind you, I used to have a social life until not long ago (when I was still happily ma…

"""As one of those nerds in his early 30s living all alone by himself in a 5x5m studio, what's so wrong with "not figuring life out" and instead only caring about what interests you most? :)"""

Dude, that totally counts as "figuring it out" :)

Re: The Trouble with Bright Kids

#73

Post by arethuza »

cletus wrote: post #40

Like others who have posted here, I have s story similar to this. By the sounds of it, I wouldn't call myself as "gifted" as some who have posted here but, relative to the environment I was in, I was "gifted". I grew up in three small towns. For the first 9 years, in a town of less than 1,000 where the 3rd and 4th grades (for example) were in the same class. When I was 8 I was doing the same work as the 7th graders w…

One of my older sisters tried to get my parents to send me to a boarding school in Aberdeen - quite a way from where I grew up. At the age of 10 or so when this suggested it utterly terrified me!

Now that we send our son to a private school (not boarding - 5 minutes walk from where we live) I'm now acutely aware of how good private schools can be, so I do tend to wonder how things might have turned out. [And I'm pretty sure I would have loved playing rugby as much as my son does].

Re: The Trouble with Bright Kids

#74

Post by BSousa »

mcobrien wrote: post #47
cletus wrote: post #40

Like others who have posted here, I have s story similar to this. By the sounds of it, I wouldn't call myself as "gifted" as some who have posted here but, relative to the environment I was in, I was "gifted". I grew up in three small towns. For the first 9 years, in a town of less than 1,000 where the 3rd and 4th grades (for example) were in the same class. When I was 8 I was doing the same work as the 7th graders w…

Thanks for sharing this. I have a bright five year-old and, having read articles like this one, my partner and I try praise effort as much as we can. Here's the problem. For nearly all of the tasks she's set in school, she doesn't need to expend much effort at all. We say, "nice work, you must have tried really hard!" and she replies, a little confused at us, "no". It sounds like you found everything too easy as well…

I can't speak for your child of course, but I can give you a little story. My wife and I went to the same schools since kindergarden (not same class) to university, so the topics and difficulty were about the same. She always had fantastic grades (90%+) and she got the encouragement that parents usually do ("You're so smart!", "Ohhh yes, she is very smart, she had a 100% on X"). I on the other hand, was an above average but didn't care much so my grades were just a bit better than average (70-80%) but something my father said always stuck with me "I don't want/need you to be a genius, just work hard." That's about what I remember of my parents parenting technique: "Just work hard".

Now, I'm 29, and never excelled at school, dropped out of University after one year, travel across Europe working as a programmer in many interesting projects and can say I live a normal balanced life. I don't dwell much on problems, and accept that things change and I can change.

My wife on the other hand, she has very low self esteem mostly because she believes that what she does is what she is. She can't change it. If she forgets about something she says she is dumb. If she breaks a glass, she says she is clumsy, and has a very hard time believing these things can change. She is stuck at a miserable job because she is too afraid to move and fail at the new one (even though she had better offers). She can't really separate what she 'is' from what she can become. For her, mostly due to the way her parents praised as a child, she came to believe we are born a certain way and can't really change.

Long story to mostly tell you (though, I'm not a parent yet so I can't say I know what the hell I'm talking about) that as long as you can teach your kid that what we become is product of what we do, and not who we are born, she will probably be ok. Try to find thing you can point to hard work. She does her homework? Nice, then tell her next time she gets a good grade "Good thing you did all you homework, see how it payed up". She may still think it was easy, but she her subconscious will link hard work and results.

Re: The Trouble with Bright Kids

#75

Post by nknight »

mcobrien wrote: post #47
cletus wrote: post #40

Like others who have posted here, I have s story similar to this. By the sounds of it, I wouldn't call myself as "gifted" as some who have posted here but, relative to the environment I was in, I was "gifted". I grew up in three small towns. For the first 9 years, in a town of less than 1,000 where the 3rd and 4th grades (for example) were in the same class. When I was 8 I was doing the same work as the 7th graders w…

Thanks for sharing this. I have a bright five year-old and, having read articles like this one, my partner and I try praise effort as much as we can. Here's the problem. For nearly all of the tasks she's set in school, she doesn't need to expend much effort at all. We say, "nice work, you must have tried really hard!" and she replies, a little confused at us, "no". It sounds like you found everything too easy as well…

> We say, "nice work, you must have tried really hard!" and she replies, a little confused at us, "no".

Yeah, in my case that was confusing up until it became insulting, probably somewhere around 7 or 8. Into the teens and adulthood, it might end up encouraging someone to reducing their efforts until they just squeak by, depends on the personality. I'd focus more on figuring out what she actually finds hard or easy, boring or interesting.

Positive reinforcement isn't bad, per se, but that particular statement acts like everything should be hard, which can be just as damaging, albeit in different ways, than acting like everything is easy.

(By the way, if you haven't already, read up on Asperger's syndrome now. A lot of gifted kids have it and go undiagnosed into adulthood. Some end up fine, some end up junkies, almost all have a very confused adolescence and even more confused parents. If your daughter shows any signs, now is the time to start paying attention and trying to compensate. Notably, it can totally screw with how reward works. A lot of us place essentially no value on verbal praise, we require tangible rewards.)

Re: The Trouble with Bright Kids

#76

Post by mluiten »

BSousa wrote: post #74
mcobrien wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thanks for sharing this. I have a bright five year-old and, having read articles like this one, my partner and I try praise effort as much as we can. Here's the problem. For nearly all of the tasks she's set in school, she doesn't need to expend much effort at all. We say, "nice work, you must have tried really hard!" and she replies, a little confused at us, "no". It sounds like you found everything too easy as well…

I can't speak for your child of course, but I can give you a little story. My wife and I went to the same schools since kindergarden (not same class) to university, so the topics and difficulty were about the same. She always had fantastic grades (90%+) and she got the encouragement that parents usually do ("You're so smart!", "Ohhh yes, she is very smart, she had a 100% on X"). I on the other hand, was an above aver…

This reminds me very much of the Carol Dweck's theory on the Fixed and Growth Mindset[1].

I too, was raised on a Fixed Mindset; "You're not good at math/physics/chemistry? That's ok, I'm sure you have other skills.". This caused me some level of discomfort in trying new things (which are necessary for any sort of growth) because at some point I could just reach 'the end of the road' and the limit of 'talent'. This has often caused me to avoid new and challenging things altogether.

Since a year or so I've been trying to adapt the Growth Mindset by interrupting my thought process when I feel this discomfort and (often literally) say to myself that it is not the outcome that matters, but the chance to improve your skills and extend your abilities. Failure is not about you and it should just be a trigger to try harder; the road does not end. I still fall in the same traps I used to, but I've said Yes to more (challenging) things this year than any other year and I haven't 'failed' nearly as much as I thought I would, nor did the failures have the impact I feared them to have. Growth really is a marvelous (and endless) thing.

[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mindset_(book)

Re: The Trouble with Bright Kids

#77

Post by Mz »

madaxe wrote: post #67
cletus wrote: post #40

Like others who have posted here, I have s story similar to this. By the sounds of it, I wouldn't call myself as "gifted" as some who have posted here but, relative to the environment I was in, I was "gifted". I grew up in three small towns. For the first 9 years, in a town of less than 1,000 where the 3rd and 4th grades (for example) were in the same class. When I was 8 I was doing the same work as the 7th graders w…

> I can remember having conversations with my parents where I'd bring home a 90% in a test and I'd get asked "what about the other 10%?" I don't think this was asked in a way to be mean. In a strange way, I think it was a weird way of showing pride because all you can "complain" about is a missing 10%. Whatever the case and in spite of well-meaning intentions, the message that was hammered in was that nothing ever se…

Sorry to hear that. The ridiculous pressures placed on gifted kids in this regard is widespread and, IMO, not healthy for society as a whole. But usually doesn't involve beatings. However, it is possible to undo the damage. I walked away from a national merit scholarship and dropped out of college to go find out who I was other than an obnoxious brainiac. I wish I had some words of wisdom to help you. No advice comes to mind (but then I don't typically do advice anyway).

Consider this a cyberhug and meant in the best way possible. If you aren't the huggie type, then a cyberbow if that works better.

Peace.

Re: The Trouble with Bright Kids

#78

Post by BSousa »

mluiten wrote: post #76
BSousa wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can't speak for your child of course, but I can give you a little story. My wife and I went to the same schools since kindergarden (not same class) to university, so the topics and difficulty were about the same. She always had fantastic grades (90%+) and she got the encouragement that parents usually do ("You're so smart!", "Ohhh yes, she is very smart, she had a 100% on X"). I on the other hand, was an above aver…

This reminds me very much of the Carol Dweck's theory on the Fixed and Growth Mindset[1]. I too, was raised on a Fixed Mindset; "You're not good at math/physics/chemistry? That's ok, I'm sure you have other skills.". This caused me some level of discomfort in trying new things (which are necessary for any sort of growth) because at some point I could just reach 'the end of the road' and the limit of 'talent'. This ha…

Glad to see it is working for you! Just bought the book you mentioned for her. Maybe it will help her. Thanks!

Re: The Trouble with Bright Kids

#79

Post by cperciva »

Yes, praising students for their effort is a good way to encourage them to keep trying. But is this necessarily a good thing?

I see far too many students entering postsecondary education who shouldn't be there. No matter how hard they try, they just can't grasp the basic concepts. And when they inevitably fail, they fall back on what they were praised for as children -- "but I worked so hard!" -- as if they deserve to receive a degree on the basis of effort alone.

Sure, it's useful to remind smart kids that they need both brains and effort. But don't make the dumb kids think that effort alone is enough to get them where they want to go.

Re: The Trouble with Bright Kids

#80

Post by cperciva »

cletus wrote: post #40

Like others who have posted here, I have s story similar to this. By the sounds of it, I wouldn't call myself as "gifted" as some who have posted here but, relative to the environment I was in, I was "gifted". I grew up in three small towns. For the first 9 years, in a town of less than 1,000 where the 3rd and 4th grades (for example) were in the same class. When I was 8 I was doing the same work as the 7th graders w…

I can distinctly remember at age 10 reasoning out that God didn't exist

Your logic was faulty. A God which does not interact with the universe is indistinguishable from a lack of God. (cf. Higgs Boson)

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