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Ask HN: Have tech salaries been stagnant for the past decade?

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Re: Ask HN: Have tech salaries been stagnant for the past decade?

#21

European permanent salaries have been coming down. UK contractors take home less now than they did 5 years ago due to taxation changes (IR35). The tax changes have also made the market a bit strange where rates are still advertised at £500 a day even though, contractor takes home significantly less money. These have not gone up inline.

Ironically, the long time contractors who work at Inland Revenue (tax office) in Telford (possibly though another company) have largely been deemed outside IR35 with a special exception from HM Gov, as otherwise it would be difficult to source contractors! I have a number of ex colleagues who've been in and out of there over the years.

Re: Ask HN: Have tech salaries been stagnant for the past decade?

#22
post #7

In Europe they've probably gone down the past decade I'd say.

in pure Euro no they went up a bit but definitly lower than the cost of living increase. the problem is that in the past decade Europe welcomed Cyprus, Czech Republic,Estonia,Hungary,Latvia, Lithuania,Malta , Poland ,Slovakia,Slovenia,Bulgaria ,Romania, Croatia. Most of those countries were below living standards/salaries of western europe while having for some of them a very strong education system. Romania for inst…

> Most of the engineers in europe that want to make money work for an american company.

From my experience, most of engineers in Europe who want to make money work are contracting. Contracting money can be similar to what the FAANGs offer here (outside of Switzerland), but taxes are often lower and you don't have to debase yourself with multistage leetcode interviews and intracompany promotion games.

However, the US companies may start to up their game here salary-wise - I was recently contacted by a recruiter of a Tier 2 US tech company who said that the TC for a tech lead position in their branch in Poland is around 220k EUR. I hope this is a part of a larger trend.

Re: Ask HN: Have tech salaries been stagnant for the past decade?

#23
post #3

Salaries are trimodal, companies only publish figures for the lower distribution, if they advertise anything at all. This article is mostly about Europe, but it applies worldwide: https://blog.pragmaticengineer.com/software-engineering-sala... .

Isn't the determining factor not which companies your employer competes against, but where the jobs are located? For example Google pays "tier 3" compensation packages to its Bay Area employees, but compensation for a Google employee in Bangalore would be much lower.

Re: Ask HN: Have tech salaries been stagnant for the past decade?

#24
post #7

In Europe they've probably gone down the past decade I'd say.

Yup, just started as an embedded software developer for 50k€ in central Europe, same as most of my friends. It's basically the same as 10 years ago from what I've heard, but COL has increased A LOT since then.

Re: Ask HN: Have tech salaries been stagnant for the past decade?

#25
That's a hard question. I'm in Denmark, which is notoriously expensive, and I'd say that even $120K for Sr DevOps is a bit on the high end.

There where a period of time with large "year on year" jumps in pay from 2010 to 2018 (something like that). That does seem to have cooled of in the past four years. I did see a brief surge in positions offered and higher wages last year, but that stopped in during spring time this year.

My guess is that it's either a reaction to salaries already being high or the general economic slowdown, in some areas.

Again it might very well depend on your location, but the positions offered are also changing. I see more and more operations related position, and generally jobs postings a from companies that aren't software companies as such,. They are just companies that needs developer for internal project or software as part of a larger system. The positions I see are very much: "We have a job that needs to get done, and just need an additional developer (or systems administrator)". There are much less of crazy "We're changing the world and are looking for ninja-pirate-elite-10x-super hackers", and the former simply pays less.

Re: Ask HN: Have tech salaries been stagnant for the past decade?

#26

European permanent salaries have been coming down. UK contractors take home less now than they did 5 years ago due to taxation changes (IR35). The tax changes have also made the market a bit strange where rates are still advertised at £500 a day even though, contractor takes home significantly less money. These have not gone up inline.

UK contractors take home less now than they did 5 years ago due to taxation changes (IR35).

It's a bit more complicated than that. The tax rules themselves haven't actually changed. What did change was who was responsible for deciding whether an engagement was caught by IR35 or not and was also liable to pay for the big tax shortfall if they were later found to have made the wrong decision.

It used to be the contractor themselves who determined the status. Now it depends on the situation but in many cases it will be the client. That has swung the needle from determinations often being too optimistic (some contractors claimed to be outside when they really weren't and hoped to get away with paying less tax than they should) to too pessimistic (risk-averse big clients aren't always assessing engagements properly and instead set blanket policies that put everyone inside even when they shouldn't be).

Neither situation is good for the contracting market and neither is what the tax rules say should happen. Both are the fault of successive governments for using such ambiguous rules about such an important tax question and making such poor provision for honest participants who want to get on with the job to know they're safe and doing the right thing as far as their tax obligations are concerned.

For genuine contractors who are working with decent clients and obviously aren't disguised employees the rules haven't changed and neither have the tax obligations.

But yes there are some clients who just throw everything inside IR35 as policy and also want to keep the same headline rates as before. Contractors working with those clients will have taken quite a hit. The solution is not to work with bad clients who try to dump their obligations on you!

Re: Ask HN: Have tech salaries been stagnant for the past decade?

#27
post #7

In Europe they've probably gone down the past decade I'd say.

Oof, European salaries are absurdly low. When I first left the USA I was thinking "OK I'll get a nice job in Amsterdam or Denmark" .. Then I saw the cost of living and the low salaries, and waved away that dream.

Re: Ask HN: Have tech salaries been stagnant for the past decade?

#28
post #7

In Europe they've probably gone down the past decade I'd say.

For me, it seems they're going up. 5-years ago, I would ask for 65,000€ in Berlin and that would be considered extremely high for my role now it seems 75,000€ is where the asking price is.

So 3% per year, or just a little bitover inflation. Still, better than the US where we don't really get inflationary raises.

Re: Ask HN: Have tech salaries been stagnant for the past decade?

#29
post #4

It’s TC (total compensation) that matters. Salaries haven’t changed a lot, but a lot of senior engineers at big companies are making 350k-400k a year total, most of which is stock. It vests every 6 months usually, in chunks of 50,70,100k. Usually there’s a bonus sometime in the year as well of anywhere from 15k-25k.

Sadly outside of FAANG this is not the case at all. Total compensation out of non-faang is: Salary + worthless stock option and maybe a 3% 401k match if they're more than 5 years old.

Re: Ask HN: Have tech salaries been stagnant for the past decade?

#30
post #11

European permanent salaries have been coming down. UK contractors take home less now than they did 5 years ago due to taxation changes (IR35). The tax changes have also made the market a bit strange where rates are still advertised at £500 a day even though, contractor takes home significantly less money. These have not gone up inline.

> UK contractors take home less now than they did 5 years ago due to taxation changes (IR35). The way I've seen this go with companies that care about their contractor workforce is that assignments and their working practices are thoroughly checked to ensure they remain outside IR35, so the take-home is just as good as it used to be. Some contracts I've seen involve a liability shift clause from the agency/client to…

Some contracts I've seen involve a liability shift clause from the agency/client to the contractor's Ltd co - and the client will often insist that you have fee-payer/agency IR35 insurance in place to protect the supply chain (Kingsbridge sell this sort of product) if such a clause is in place.

Yes that's definitely happening. However this practice is on the radar of the relevant authorities and hasn't yet been tested in court/tribunal settings. It's clearly trying to circumvent the spirit of the rules by shifting responsibility that is now explicitly intended to rest with the client or intermediaries onto the contractor themselves. That may be unfair particularly if the client or intermediaries are also writing the contract and specifying the required working arrangements for an engagement as is often the case for contract work.

It seems likely that a test case will happen before long. The resulting decision may be of the form "LOL nice try Mr Agency now pay up". As with so much in this area the real problem is that no-one knows for sure. That creates a chilling effect across the whole industry and of course the larger parties with the bigger legal budgets have a natural advantage there.

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