Startups Are Hard. So Work More, Cry Less, And Quit All The Whining • Hacker News Board

Re: Startups Are Hard. So Work More, Cry Less, And Quit All The Whining

#91

Post by kamaal » Mon, Nov 28, 2011, 4:27 AM UTC

agentultra wrote: post #88

Work more, cry less, and quite all the whining... is this SV or Full Metal Jacket? That's not advice. It's ignorance. If you cannot get your work done in eight hours a day there is probably something that's off. Maybe you're underestimating the work. Maybe you're being optimistic about your deadlines. Maybe you're not being honest with yourself about how efficiently you're using your time in the day. After eight hour…

There is always, repeat always who is going to do more work than you. That's fundamentally how competition works. And the one who does more work than you do, will always have an edge over you. Both on the shorter and the longer run. There are rewards to do that extra. And that motivation will always drive a person to do more work than you do. And trust me inevitable he will end up being successful someday.

You may do a quick comparison and call that extra work 'not worth it' when you compare against other aspects of your life that demand time. But after say a decade when you look back and find that guy to have taken a huge leap ahead of you, suddenly you get that thought that occupies every person in such a situation:

'Why couldn't have I done that?'

And then starts the analysis. You will end up finding that you were a lot more intelligent than him yet the guy somehow manage to beat you.

That's when you will realize the most dangerous fact of the world.

Hard work * time gives surprising success.

In my case I will rather take my chances do more work than my peers and even fail. Then have a regret that I could have worked hard and won but I didn't.

Re: Startups Are Hard. So Work More, Cry Less, And Quit All The Whining

#92

Post by snowwrestler » Mon, Nov 28, 2011, 4:42 AM UTC

tmurray wrote: post #65

neilk wrote: post #51

This is insane . You realize that all the quotes are from a post called the author describes as a 'cautionary tale'? ( http://www.jwz.org/gruntle/nscpdorm.html ) I think jwz sums it up best in another post, where he talks about the best case scenario: becoming rich from your startup: I've known dozens of instant-millionaires so far (from Netscape as well as other companies), and basically, I don't speak to any of the…

Yeah, this article left me speechless. Why would you use jwz to justify startup culture? jwz left the tech industry completely in 2000 and bought DNA Lounge.

I think the point is that he could not have afforded to buy a lounge if he hadn't first worked hard enough to succeed in a startup.

Re: Startups Are Hard. So Work More, Cry Less, And Quit All The Whining

#93

Post by ChuckMcM » Mon, Nov 28, 2011, 4:53 AM UTC

caseysoftware wrote: post #80

ChuckMcM wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think people appreciate the money aspect enough. It does change people and not always along a vector you would expect. It also changes people who don't get rich. Your a low number employee and your company goes public, woohoo you are rich, but people who work with you and came later and are doing the same job as you are not. The cognitive dissonance is huge, people sometimes feel guilty that they are rich and…

"Your a low number employee and your company goes public, woohoo you are rich, but people who work with you and came later and are doing the same job as you are not." You're leaving out risk and experience: * Employee #3 takes more risk than employee #30 who took more risk than employee #300. * More importantly, even if they have the same roles when employee #30 joined, odds are that employee #3 was involved in quite…

"You're leaving out risk and experience:"

Don't confuse the 'why' some folks are more handsomely rewarded at a liquidity event, with 'what it does to them.'

Here is the situation, person A in a four person cube is a multi-millioniare on paper, person B, C, and D are still unable to come up with a down payment on a house.

Person B, "Hey A, what are you doing this weekend?" Person A, "We're flying up to Oregon to go helicopter skiing on Mt Hood, its wicked cool, I got a new set of bump skis and that Rossingol gortex super suit, can't wait to try it out. How about you?" Person B, "Uh, a BBQ on the balcony of C's apartment. I guess you're busy."

Now person A might be a douchbag here but they might simply be honestly answering the question. And in the answering, its awkward because its hard to imagine them not going helicopter skiing so that could could come over and have tri-tip at your place and play Wii or watch the game.

But at work they all work on the same part of the system, they all have similar roles and similar levels of responsibility.

Person A, if they have any empathy at all, will quickly recognize that it makes non-rich people uncomfortable to talk about stuff like this, and they stop (and then appear 'withdrawn' to people B, C, and D.) and they start hanging out with the other low number folks who are doing their own crazy things and so feel neither threatened nor jealous nor uncomfortable with discussions that involve spending 15 - 20 thousand dollars for a weekend outing.

Sometimes people B, C, and D will respond affirmatively and supportively, sometimes they will attempt to make person A feel like a douchebag (even if they aren't) to salve some inner wound. How folks respond to that varies by person, I don't know if you can know apriori how you personally will respond until you are in that position.

Re: Startups Are Hard. So Work More, Cry Less, And Quit All The Whining

#94

Post by cmeranda » Mon, Nov 28, 2011, 5:01 AM UTC

neilk wrote: post #45

itmag wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm in my early 20s. Startups seem to be the only way out of 40 years of mediocrity in TPS-land for me, so I don't really think I have much of a choice. It's startups or nothing for me. Or maybe I am being myopic? Are there more options to be had in life than mediocrity/wageslavery vs glory/startups?

You are believing exactly what investors and VCs want you to believe. You aren't escaping wage slavery, you are just substituting a different slavemaster. Wake up. There are billions of people on this planet. Do you think that the ones who aren't in Silicon Valley startups are all miserable ? Their lives aren't worth living? Ok, but more specifically. Let's say you want to lead a creative existence, working with tech…

I agree with the majority of this but would like to add that founding your own startup and keeping it ultra lightweight can gain you these same freedoms on a higher income.

Don't take on investors: make a product that earns money. Don't hire full or part time employees: find intelligent automated solutions to tricky problems or bring on contractors as necessary. Having control over what you make and when you make it means (for me, at least) more sleep, more money and less wasted time making someone else's dream a reality.

Re: Startups Are Hard. So Work More, Cry Less, And Quit All The Whining

#95

Post by csallen » Mon, Nov 28, 2011, 5:15 AM UTC

itmag wrote: post #64

csallen wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just because you're starting a company doesn't mean you need to raise millions of dollars, work 80 hours a week, and try to become the next Facebook. Alternatively, you can raise (or save) a moderate amount of cash, work comfortably at whatever pace you choose, and build something scalable and sellable. If you're making quality software, it's not difficult to generate enough passive income to support the lifestyle yo…

Yes, that sounds like a dream come true. Got any pointers for me?

I haven't read the book that some others have been recommending, but it looks good (I respect a lot of the people who gave it favorable reviews on its website). Aside from that, I'd say you should do some research on others who've successfully followed this path. They exist -- they're just less likely to show up in tech news, which is heavily influenced by investors (who only care about big wins) and bloggers (who only care about big news).

Take a look at the early blog posts from Balsamiq's Peldi, anything by Patrick Mackenzie, the Wufoo guys, Gary Vaynerchuck, or anything from the 37Signals guys. This talk by DHH never fails to motivate me: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0CDXJ6bMkMY

Re: Startups Are Hard. So Work More, Cry Less, And Quit All The Whining

#96

Post by freshhawk » Mon, Nov 28, 2011, 5:25 AM UTC

Ugh. Silly VC propaganda is now making the front page?

Honestly this is a great attitude to instill in your employees, they will kill themselves for the company and when they burn out you can hire some more. You really can get a lot done when you can convince people to sacrifice their lives. Just make sure you and your technical advisers get enough sleep and downtime to think clearly and stay motivated and sharp.

If you are a developer then hopefully you've read enough about your profession to know how real work gets done.

Maybe you are too naive to know that there are people who are more than happy to sell you a dream so you'll work yourself stupid, selling a chunk of your life for a lottery ticket (but hey, some of them do pay off).

That naiveté won't last long in this business, so don't worry, you'll learn one way or another.

Re: Startups Are Hard. So Work More, Cry Less, And Quit All The Whining

#97

Post by diego » Mon, Nov 28, 2011, 5:34 AM UTC

harryh wrote: post #81

neilk wrote: post #51

This is insane . You realize that all the quotes are from a post called the author describes as a 'cautionary tale'? ( http://www.jwz.org/gruntle/nscpdorm.html ) I think jwz sums it up best in another post, where he talks about the best case scenario: becoming rich from your startup: I've known dozens of instant-millionaires so far (from Netscape as well as other companies), and basically, I don't speak to any of the…

It's not that cautionary. If you went to jwz right now and asked him "If you went back in time and, knowing everything you know now about how much pain would be involved, would you sign up with Netscape again?" I bet you he'd say yes. "But who said everything has to be fun? Pain builds character. (Sometimes it builds products, too.)"

I asked him, here's his response.

http://twitter.com/#!/jwz/status/141017942639902720

Re: Startups Are Hard. So Work More, Cry Less, And Quit All The Whining

#98

Post by moocow01 » Mon, Nov 28, 2011, 6:17 AM UTC

kamaal wrote: post #91

agentultra wrote: post #88

Work more, cry less, and quite all the whining... is this SV or Full Metal Jacket? That's not advice. It's ignorance. If you cannot get your work done in eight hours a day there is probably something that's off. Maybe you're underestimating the work. Maybe you're being optimistic about your deadlines. Maybe you're not being honest with yourself about how efficiently you're using your time in the day. After eight hour…

There is always, repeat always who is going to do more work than you. That's fundamentally how competition works. And the one who does more work than you do, will always have an edge over you. Both on the shorter and the longer run. There are rewards to do that extra. And that motivation will always drive a person to do more work than you do. And trust me inevitable he will end up being successful someday. You may do…

Your basing your argument on the idea that everyone is in some linear race and we will all do an assessment of ourselves and everyone else at the age of 40 to see who is ahead. Unfortunately many of the typically unhappiest people do this and they base their assessment on money and job titles. Success is not just about money and job titles. We all (well atleast some of us) have our own versions. One person who goes home after 8 hours may end up dedicating their extra time to building a great family life or hobby while pittying his past high performing coworker who now has made CEO. Who do you think is happier when they look back - the person who followed what they wanted to do or the person who 'won' against their peers?

Re: Startups Are Hard. So Work More, Cry Less, And Quit All The Whining

#99

Post by nknight » Mon, Nov 28, 2011, 6:37 AM UTC

snowwrestler wrote: post #92

tmurray wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, this article left me speechless. Why would you use jwz to justify startup culture? jwz left the tech industry completely in 2000 and bought DNA Lounge.

I think the point is that he could not have afforded to buy a lounge if he hadn't first worked hard enough to succeed in a startup.

People have been starting businesses with limited personal wealth since time immemorial. He may or may not have had the flexibility to do exactly what he did, but mortgages and business loans for things that aren't utterly ridiculous are not difficult to come by in good economic conditions (which is what he had at the time).

Re: Startups Are Hard. So Work More, Cry Less, And Quit All The Whining

#100

Post by itmag » Mon, Nov 28, 2011, 6:38 AM UTC

TillE wrote: post #76

lfittl wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Rob Walling's book is a nice how-to for this kind of entrepreneurship http://www.startupbook.net/ (not affiliated with the author in any way, just enjoyed the book myself)

Seconded. I'm doing a radically different thing from Rob's focus on niche web apps, so a lot of his advice didn't directly apply. But as someone taking the independent/bootstrapper approach to starting a software company, I still got quite a lot out of the book. I'd strongly recommend the podcast as well: http://www.startupsfortherestofus.com/

Thanks!

And I'll recommend this one then: http://www.mixergy.com (I am quite active over email with the host and have arranged several of the interviews - Morten Lund and John Robb come to mind)