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Twilio to lay off 11% of workforce

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Re: Twilio to lay off 11% of workforce

#381

Post by Manuel_D »

vondur wrote: post #223
lr1970 wrote: post #209

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But is it plain illegal. For employment purposes Race is a protected class (at least in USA) and racial discrimination while hiring or firing violates federal law. How would they get away with this?

I'm pretty sure if you are white and laid off, you will have a pretty strong case for a lawsuit. I can't believe someone in legal wouldn't warn the leadership that putting out a press release stating this was a good idea.

This is San Francisco. When I worked there (2015-2020), most of my co-workers openly endorsed hiring bias against demographics that aren't considered "diverse". I'd be highly skeptical that a jury would side with a plaintiff alleging anti-white discrimination, no matter how solid the proof. If a community widely thinks activity that is de jure illegal should be allowed then it becomes de facto permitted because even if a company engages in this behavior and gets sued they won't be held liable.

Re: Twilio to lay off 11% of workforce

#382

Post by zackees »

subsubzero wrote: post #139
enumjorge wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a Latino, I too am growing tired of the way some leadership and HR departments in tech callously, carelessly push and promote these diversity initiatives in a way that creates resentment. Combating racial bias is a sensitive topic. You'd have to be living under a rock to not know that. And yet companies continue to make statements like this without the tact it deserves. Let's give them the benefit of the doubt, an…

Curious how you feel about the term LatinX that all tech companies are embracing? Reason I ask is I have a few really good friends who are Hispanic(Nicaraguan, Dominican, Mexican) and they all despise that term. I don't know why its used and it seems strange as its been forced on us the past few years with no consulting or buy-in from any of the Hispanic employees at these companies. Even outside polls found that a h…

No post body was provided.

Re: Twilio to lay off 11% of workforce

#383

Post by choko »

yojo wrote: post #208
choko wrote: post #177

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What evidence do you have that it was because your boss was black? X happened and the target was black doesn't mean X happened BECAUSE the target was black. Did the cop use any sort of racial insult? I can share all kinds of negative interactions I've had and other white friends and family members have had with police for reasons unknown - including with black officers.

I don’t have any. But I can’t recall ever seeing or hearing of a white businessman in a suit getting ordered to the ground without cause. It is fully possible this was random chance. It’s an anecdote, not statistics. But if you want to look at statistics, there are plenty of studies. From the first hit on Google for police stops: a black person in North Carolina is 95% more likely to get pulled over than a white pers…

I'm not claiming that there aren't some people in positions of authority that don't make prejudiced assumptions. What I'm saying is that you can't assume every time something like this happens it's due to race. Statistics without context are often misleading. I read the article and it's hardly objective. I would prefer to see the dataset as well as other demographics and details of who was stopped, the kind of cars they drove and other such detail. Often, people don't analyze very deeply and start with preconceived notions, especially around race. In addition, how many of these cops actually saw the driver before making the stop - especially highway stops.

Re: Twilio to lay off 11% of workforce

#384

Post by Manuel_D »

ForHackernews wrote: post #376
NeverFade wrote: post #320

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are wrong. There is one judgement that upholds a form of affirmative action in very narrow circumstances (education) and only in very limited form, and even that is challenged in SCOTUS and likely to be overturned: https://www.wgbh.org/news/education/2021/07/22/as-supreme-co... Racist discrimination is an ugly thing, even when you call it pretty names like "affirmative action". If Affirmative Action was universal…

Men actually do benefit from soft affirmative action in college admissions because of this disparity. You can look this up for yourself, but here's one source[0]. Men are admitted at a higher rate, with worse grades and test scores, by selective universities that want to make sure they have a "balanced" class of undergraduates. [0] https://www.ivywise.com/ivywise-knowledgebase/resources/arti...

It depends on the university, engineering-oriented schools admit women at higher rates (over 2x in the case of MIT and Harvey Mudd): https://money.com/colleges-women-higher-acceptance-rate/

Re: Twilio to lay off 11% of workforce

#385

Post by peter422 »

yibg wrote: post #366
peter422 wrote: post #307

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And thus we perpetuate the injustice indefinitely! Your essential argument seems to be that once an injustice is over one generation old, it is as if it never happened, no matter if the after effects continue to cascade into modern day. You cannot just magically pretend an individual is not part of a society.

What's the proposed solution? Put a finger on the scale against the privileged group? By how much? for how long? Lumping any race together and treating it as the same is a problem in my view.

And ignoring it altogether is better?

I don't have a magical solution, but I also am not going to flip out everytime a private company chooses to give some type of minor preferential treatment to historically underprivileged groups to attempt to balance out systemic inequities.

I can't say with complete confidence one way or the other if Twilio's policy is right or wrong but I can say with confidence a lot of the critiques are both in bad faith and lack any real attempt in understanding the rationale behind the policies.

Re: Twilio to lay off 11% of workforce

#386

Post by vdnkh »

noelsusman wrote: post #319
Ensorceled wrote: post #168

This line seems to be referenced a lot in these comments: > Layoffs like this can have a more pronounced impact on marginalized communities, so we were particularly focused on ensuring our layoffs – while a business necessity today – were carried out through an Anti-Racist/Anti-Oppression lens. Sounds like they are taking steps to make sure whoever was chosen for layoffs were not chosen for racist reasons. But so man…

HN is full of reactionaries who are easily triggered by any sort of diversity-related language and seem to lose their ability to think critically. Everyone complaining about that line is making a whole lot of assumptions about what it actually means. FWIW I would be interested to know what the CEO actually meant by that. My assumption is it's more lip service than anything else.

This, and HN in aggregate is pretty right wing, so anything "woke" is bound to trigger a lot of people. I suppose there's always been a libertarian bend here in line tech workers in general, but ever since Trump (and especially Trump's loss), topics vaguely supporting progressive ideas are home to tons of comments airing right-wing grievances.

Re: Twilio to lay off 11% of workforce

#387

Post by sophacles »

choko wrote: post #372
sophacles wrote: post #345

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wonder what would happen if you replied to the post I wrote rather than the one you imagined?

I wonder what would happen if you weren't so condescending. Your opening statement was "I used to think like you" as if you have evolved and are somehow morally superior. I see no evidence of this assumed superiority. You made a ton of assumptions in your post and it was mostly about your own white guilt since you are on "easy mode" as you put it. You sound like you have some unresolved issues and I encourage you to…

My bad, I assumed that some amount of thought went into your response - I was clearly wrong, apologies.

Under that assumption I (again, the whole "you thought about your reaction" thing was a bad assumption on my part, sorry) related my own past thinking and how it changed. There was no moral superiority there, just my story about how my thinking changed and what I have observed. You seem to be reading a lot more into it than I wrote.

Re: Twilio to lay off 11% of workforce

#388

Post by yibg »

peter422 wrote: post #385
yibg wrote: post #366

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's the proposed solution? Put a finger on the scale against the privileged group? By how much? for how long? Lumping any race together and treating it as the same is a problem in my view.

And ignoring it altogether is better? I don't have a magical solution, but I also am not going to flip out everytime a private company chooses to give some type of minor preferential treatment to historically underprivileged groups to attempt to balance out systemic inequities. I can't say with complete confidence one way or the other if Twilio's policy is right or wrong but I can say with confidence a lot of the cri…

If there is an unfairness in obtaining opportunity, either lack of education opportunity or whatever, that seems like the right thing to address. Not at the end of the process and then trying to tilt things.

Re: Twilio to lay off 11% of workforce

#389

Post by peter422 »

LegitShady wrote: post #349
peter422 wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Serious question: Are you aware of the historical context of the United States as it concerns race? Without looking anything up tell me what you know about it.

serious question - instead of debating the issue, why do you quiz them on their personal knowledge of history? If you'd like to make a point, make it. but demanding they justify their knowledge of history isn't a point in your favor, it rather appears you're incapable of providing a logical argument so will ad hominem their knowledge of history instead. Who are you to quiz random people on the internet on historical…

Race is a social construct that only has any relevance in it's historical context. If somebody is not aware of the relevant context as it relates to the US (they specifically said they were not from the US) then of course it would be very difficult to understand the point of the policies.

Most people are willfully ignorant and like to "play dumb" while making bad faith arguments about issues like this. I was merely trying to inquire if the OC was ignorant and willing to learn or willfully ignorant.

Re: Twilio to lay off 11% of workforce

#390

Post by Consultant32452 »

HideousKojima wrote: post #269
Consultant32452 wrote: post #239

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A Minnesota public school district created a plan to prioritize laying off white teachers. https://nypost.com/2022/08/17/minneapolis-schools-defend-pla...

And in doing so, they almost perfectly matched what a school district did back in 1985 and got wrecked by SCOTUS over: https://caselaw.findlaw.com/us-supreme-court/476/267.html A bold move, especially since the court looks even less favorably on affirmative action than it did 40 years ago.

The problem is not just the letter of the law, it's the culture that would even create such a policy in the first place. The law can help some, assuming SCOTUS knocks this down, but it doesn't address the root cause. The people who came up with this will still be in positions of power.
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