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Twilio to lay off 11% of workforce

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Re: Twilio to lay off 11% of workforce

#141
post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We have no idea what it means and you can rationalize it all you like. Quota or not they likely fired a white person instead of a another person because of their skin color. Or it’s just cheap talk and means nothing, those are the only two options.

> Quota or not they likely fired a white person instead of a another person because of their skin color. Again, that would be racist. 'Anti-racist' is more likely that they made sure the white (or Indian, or whatever) manager didn't just fire all his non-white (or non-Indian, or whatever) reports, without good reason. Getting hurt over people trying to be racially equitable ignores the fact that the default is racial…

"Trying to be racially equitable" is a loaded, political term. They don't appear to be "trying to", they appear to be actively enforcing racial equity.

Equality of opportunity (equality) is good. Equality of outcome (equity) is only possible if you deliberately handicap the most competent and most productive people of the group, because humans are differently abled.

I am not mad that the NBA hires a massively disproportionately large number of African Americans, for instance, because small differences in average height (African Americans are taller, on average, than Caucasian Americans) result in much larger discrepancies at the extremes. If you're playing a game where you need extreme height, you'd expect an overrepresentation of African Americans relative to whites.

If you're playing a game that benefits players with a different extreme stat that Asian Americans score better in, on average, than Caucasian Americans, you'd expect the highest levels of that game to have an overrepresentation of Asian Americans relative to Caucasian Americans there too.

And the result is good. Watching a bunch of pudgy, (comparatively) short Caucasian Americans playing basketball interests me a lot less than a bunch of 6'6"+ African Americans who are objectively superior at the sport playing.

I'd rather listen to music made by the world's best band than by the world's most racially equitable band.

I'd rather get surgery at the world's best hospital than the world's most racially equitable hospital.

This is why we have social hierarchies stratified by competence, rather than by racial equity.

We should never be denying anyone the opportunity to try their best at something just because of their skin color, but we shouldn't expect perfect equality of outcome on that front either.

Note this also applies to gender. I'm a fat, heavy person, if I'm in a burning building, I want my firefighter to be able to carry 300 pounds. I'd make an educated guess that there are a lot more men than women who can carry 300 pounds.

I read a study a while ago that said women are 77% less likely to die in a car accident. By that same logic (and personal anecdote), I much prefer female drivers to male drivers when I am a passenger.

That's not to say there aren't women who can carry me, or that there aren't men who drive responsibly, but equity in either of these fields would probably lead to more deaths, because different types of people, on average, are better at different things, and an economy which encourages everyone to do what they are best at brings out the best in all of us.

An economy in which the most competent are artificially handicapped and the least competent are artificially boosted is worse for everyone.

Re: Twilio to lay off 11% of workforce

#142

(I am a black man) I feel like the statement that the layoffs "were carried out through an Anti-Racist/Anti-Oppression lens" puts a target on the backs of the people who you claim to be helping. If you're affected by layoffs described this way, you then question whether that was because of who you are. That then makes it harder for the minorities you claim to be "helping" to stay in the room anywhere else because of…

I think hardly anything should be conflated with diversity tbh. About 5 years ago nothing was really attributed to diversity, except maybe in some remote areas. The new push to call everything anti-racist is making everyone very racist. It's a very weird moment.

Re: Twilio to lay off 11% of workforce

#143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oh I misread your original post, sorry about that. So your belief is that affirmative action in college admissions is the defining factor in race inequality, even though the vast majority of the structural disadvantages happen much younger? Remember that this is the American society that upon integration decided over and over again they'd rather fill public pools with cement than have them shared between white and bl…

No, there are zero barriers "in front" of minorities in the states, only advantages. There is no institutional discrimination against minorities, only against the now-majority, soon-to-be minority.

If we look at a 1 year old black child, and a 1 year old while child, the average household wealth of the white child is around 10x higher.

What did the white child do to deserve this? How much better could they possibly be at drooling and crawling to have so much more wealth available to them?

So I guess your belief is that household wealth has no impact on children?

Re: Twilio to lay off 11% of workforce

#144
post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s true though

It's just so weird, though. If you honestly have that opinion, that means one of two things is true. 1. We shouldn't have CEOs, in which case most businesses today wouldn't exist. Using Apple as an example, it never would have released the products it did - not to say Steve or Tim are soldering iPhone components, that's clearly not what I mean. But you can't honestly believe that Jobs didn't play some role in directi…

> 1. We shouldn't have CEOs, in which case most businesses today wouldn't exist.

There's over 30 million businesses in the US [0], and 200,000 CEOs.

Is it really impossible to imagine another structure that doesn't involve a CEO or chief?

I don't personally think it'll change anything (nor do I have any hatred for CEOs), we'll just hate whoever made the decision. It's just easier when it's one human-with-out-of-fashion-attributes who makes a lot of money.

[0] https://www.bizjournals.com/albany/news/2019/04/11/number-of... [1] https://www.bls.gov/oes/current/oes111011.htm

Re: Twilio to lay off 11% of workforce

#145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a Latino, I too am growing tired of the way some leadership and HR departments in tech callously, carelessly push and promote these diversity initiatives in a way that creates resentment. Combating racial bias is a sensitive topic. You'd have to be living under a rock to not know that. And yet companies continue to make statements like this without the tact it deserves. Let's give them the benefit of the doubt, an…

Curious how you feel about the term LatinX that all tech companies are embracing? Reason I ask is I have a few really good friends who are Hispanic(Nicaraguan, Dominican, Mexican) and they all despise that term. I don't know why its used and it seems strange as its been forced on us the past few years with no consulting or buy-in from any of the Hispanic employees at these companies. Even outside polls found that a h…

It's believers in the cause (either genuinely or performatively) trying to rise above one another in moral status. Sometimes it sticks, sometimes it backfires as it did with Twitch: https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-56251452

Re: Twilio to lay off 11% of workforce

#146
post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They have been pushing "anti-racism" hard, which sounds nice on the surface but when you dig into critical race theory where its coming from it's a dog whistle for hating white people, basically. Now I know this is super trendy right now but I don't want to get emails from your organization about how woke and bigoted you are. Just sell me the damn SaaS tool we signed up for and keep your politics to yourself. We move…

Quoted post unavailable.

You refer to the original/early version of CRT.

In the 90s and beyond, CRT has expanded substantially in scope. It has also changed focus in terms of how it is utilized.

Re: Twilio to lay off 11% of workforce

#147
post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Racial discrimination is perfectly legal (and sometimes mandated) as long as the group harmed is the right one.

At least in the United States, this is not true. Please do not spread inflammatory disinformation: https://www.eeoc.gov/racecolor-discrimination

From your link:

> The law forbids discrimination when it comes to any aspect of employment, including hiring, firing, pay, job assignments, promotions, layoff, training, fringe benefits, and any other term or condition of employment.

This makes it sound like affirmative action is illegal. But it is currently allowed and many companies brag about doing it.

What Twilio is doing is basically the same. It's like affirmative action for layoffs.

I agree that GP was wrong to say that discrimination is mandated, which it is not.

Re: Twilio to lay off 11% of workforce

#148
post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They have been pushing "anti-racism" hard, which sounds nice on the surface but when you dig into critical race theory where its coming from it's a dog whistle for hating white people, basically. Now I know this is super trendy right now but I don't want to get emails from your organization about how woke and bigoted you are. Just sell me the damn SaaS tool we signed up for and keep your politics to yourself. We move…

Quoted post unavailable.

To imply there is absolutely no overlap between the group of people espousing CRT and the group of people who believe the world would be a better place if every white person spontaneously died is to be willfully ignorant of an unfortunate reality.

We should be taking the opportunity to disavow the latter on behalf of the good intentions of the former.

Re: Twilio to lay off 11% of workforce

#150

(I am a black man) I feel like the statement that the layoffs "were carried out through an Anti-Racist/Anti-Oppression lens" puts a target on the backs of the people who you claim to be helping. If you're affected by layoffs described this way, you then question whether that was because of who you are. That then makes it harder for the minorities you claim to be "helping" to stay in the room anywhere else because of…

>If you're affected by layoffs described this way, you then question whether that was because of who you are. I mean, this isn't a question. They're saying it outright. When picking who to layoff, race was a factor. If you don't like it, take it up with people making those decisions.

Perhaps when you do layoffs naively, you can accidentally adversely affect certain groups. For example, if your policy was last in - first out, you would likely be letting go a disproportional number of young workers.

I can't say wether anything like that was the case, nor would I counter the experience of responders here saying that they as minorities find actions like Twillio's harmful. Nor do I comment on whether the messaging was done well. Only that the situation can have nuance.

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