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Anti-royal protesters are being arrested in the U.K. as 'Not My King' tag grows

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Re: Anti-royal protesters are being arrested in the U.K. as 'Not My King' tag grows

#661

Post by austinjp »

tim333 wrote: post #647
austinjp wrote: post #327

The UK media (not just the BBC) continue to profess "amazement" at the speed and efficiency of the transitioning from a dead monarch to a living one. There's been much speaking in awed tones at the pace of the various proclamations, committee meetings, document signings, etc, as if this pace tells us why we should be impressed. Personally I've found it borderline sickening. If there was a curtain that could have slip…

Recent survey 62% of Brits support having a monarchy, 22% think we should ditch it for a republic. Not sure what the problem is with a decidedly popular multi century tradition? I'm okay with this even if you don't like it. The British people could always vote the them out if they actually wanted to.

See my comment elsewhere here. Support dips to 31% in those aged 18-24. It's very high in the over 65s, with 77% supporting the monarchy.

As for voting to remove the monarchy, in theory yes that's possible but would require some sort of referendum. Unlikely for a long time :) And as you point out, not currently likely to be popular.

As for what's wrong with an unelected elite family of multi-millionaires who are protected by the police, military, church, and all other state machinery... plenty has been written elsewhere :)

It seems odd to me that the monarchy could be viewed as merely "tradition", and a benign one at that. I guess this view has been aided by the way Elizabeth kept a steady hand on the wheel and expressed only the most anodyne opinions in public. I confess I am intrigued to see how Charles manages.

Re: Anti-royal protesters are being arrested in the U.K. as 'Not My King' tag grows

#662

Post by robomartin »

jon_adler wrote: post #514
robomartin wrote: post #390

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One thing I will never understand about people who pretty much hate where they live for one reason or another: Why don't they leave? Seriously. I am not taking sides here. I have visited the UK as a tourist and on business a zillion times over the last four decades. And yet, I am not qualified to voice opinion as to the realities of living there. From the outside, as someone visiting from the US, for lack of a better…

A couple of counterpoints. I think you underestimate how difficult it can be to emigrate to another country without plenty of money (although it is relatively for EU citizens, rights the British have recently given up). Secondly, why should they leave rather than fight hard for change? The love it or leave it argument is so lazy.

> I think you underestimate how difficult it can be to emigrate to another country without plenty of money

I don't. My parent did it with nearly nothing. So did my grandparents before them. It isn't easy. Yet it is not impossible.

> why should they leave rather than fight hard for change?

It's a matter of degrees, right? I know people who hate the US to the bone and yet, they still live here. That's the kind of thing I don't understand. And, in the case of the couple of people I have in mind, money isn't problem at all.

Also, if you notice, I did mention the option to stay and fight for change is still there.

The question is one of what someone might want to have their life focus be about. I have to tell you that as you get older you tend to appreciate the idea of moving towards less drama and complexity in life. Why live life in a fever of anguish and dissatisfaction when other options might exist.

Also note that, philosophically speaking, my comment extends to situations related to working at a job or for a company one might not enjoy. One can stay and fight for change or just go. It's one of the most powerful expressions of freedom I can think of. They lose. You win. And someone (a nation or company) who might appreciate what you have to offer benefits from your decision.

In the end, it's about being free.

Re: Anti-royal protesters are being arrested in the U.K. as 'Not My King' tag grows

#663

Post by robomartin »

krisoft wrote: post #465
robomartin wrote: post #390

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One thing I will never understand about people who pretty much hate where they live for one reason or another: Why don't they leave? Seriously. I am not taking sides here. I have visited the UK as a tourist and on business a zillion times over the last four decades. And yet, I am not qualified to voice opinion as to the realities of living there. From the outside, as someone visiting from the US, for lack of a better…

> One thing I will never understand about people who pretty much hate where they live for one reason or another: Why don't they leave? Hate is a very strong word. What about people who love the place they live in, but have a few things which they would like to chane? It is perfectly conceivable that someone would love their life in the UK yet thinks that there should be no exceptions written into the law about the bu…

> Hate is a very strong word. What about people who love the place they live in, but have a few things which they would like to chane?

Then they don't hate where they live. Right?

You are right, it is a matter of degrees. That's why I chose a strong word. If someone has reached that level, they can exist in anguish or choose to go elsewhere.

As I mentioned in other comments, this applies to a job one might hate just as well.

In the end it is about freedom.

Re: Anti-royal protesters are being arrested in the U.K. as 'Not My King' tag grows

#664

Post by robomartin »

fennecfoxen wrote: post #446
robomartin wrote: post #390

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One thing I will never understand about people who pretty much hate where they live for one reason or another: Why don't they leave? Seriously. I am not taking sides here. I have visited the UK as a tourist and on business a zillion times over the last four decades. And yet, I am not qualified to voice opinion as to the realities of living there. From the outside, as someone visiting from the US, for lack of a better…

> Why don't they leave? Exactly how feasible do you think that suggestion is? What’s your guess on the budget you’d need for legal fees alone? (Using EU freedom of movement laws is cheating.)

> Exactly how feasible do you think that suggestion is?

My grandparents emigrated with absolutely nothing to their names. My parents emigrated US with very little. It isn't easy. At all. It also isn't impossible.

Re: Anti-royal protesters are being arrested in the U.K. as 'Not My King' tag grows

#665

Post by kamaal »

HyperSane wrote: post #586
kamaal wrote: post #579

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Royalty" never really ruled anything completely in history. There were always ministers, even a prime minister, bureaucracy under the King/Queen. The King/Queen only maintained enough political power to veto any decision in any branch of the government. That's pretty much it. Nothing much really changed per se after Democracy. Bureaucracy still remains the largest and still a unelected branch of the government. You…

"Nothing much really changed per se after Democracy. " Yes, something very important changes, which is a rejection of the fundamental premise that some people are inherently superior and deserve to rule because of it. I wonder if the fact that the UK is still so strongly class segregated is a cause or effect of still having a monarchy? "what are you fighting for" Not tolerating a bunch of elitist, parasitic pricks wh…

>>rejection of the fundamental premise that some people are inherently superior and deserve to rule because of it.

>>Not tolerating a bunch of elitist, parasitic pricks who think they have the right to rule because they are better than everyone else.

Democracy just offers you a choice to pick among a range of elitist pricks. Note in monarchy too, the prime minister is more or less a person of merit. The monarchy just maintains a veto, that's all the difference there is.

The remainder of the structure is just the same both in democracy and monarchy.

Re: Anti-royal protesters are being arrested in the U.K. as 'Not My King' tag grows

#666

Post by chrisseaton »

austinjp wrote: post #659
chrisseaton wrote: post #558

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> In what way? Precedence of what? I don’t get what you’re finding confusing. For example the Accession ceremony we just had - why was it like that? Because that’s how it happened last time - that’s what precedence is. Why does writing it down make it more equal?

I'm not confused :) The argument is circular: "Why do these things? Because we've always done them!" That's just daft, it doesn't leave any opportunity for change. You suggest: > The UK constitution is based on precedence. It's clear from the discussion here that even the existence of a constitution in the UK is debatable, let alone it's contents . It's been pointed out here that precise meaning in written constituti…

> "Why do these things? Because we've always done them!"

Literally how is that any different to ‘Why do these things? Because it says so on this piece of paper!’

And as has been said a few times - precedence and literally ‘written down’ are not mutually exclusive - you’re after a red herring by obsessing on the ‘unwritten’ part.

Most legal systems use precedence - the US uses judicial precedence to interpret the constitution - because the written one isn’t usable without it!

Re: Anti-royal protesters are being arrested in the U.K. as 'Not My King' tag grows

#667

Post by robomartin »

WickyNilliams wrote: post #552
robomartin wrote: post #390

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One thing I will never understand about people who pretty much hate where they live for one reason or another: Why don't they leave? Seriously. I am not taking sides here. I have visited the UK as a tourist and on business a zillion times over the last four decades. And yet, I am not qualified to voice opinion as to the realities of living there. From the outside, as someone visiting from the US, for lack of a better…

Dissatisfaction is the engine of change! I suspect every right and freedom each of us enjoy in our respective countries is the result of people unhappy with their country seeking to better it. In the UK we even had a civil war over the monarchy centuries ago! Why didn't Cromwell just leave?? Also it completely ignores that people have family, dependents, friends, history that they may not wish to abandon. For some ad…

> You have a overly-romanticised vision of the UK based on a few visits, which I'm afraid doesn't quite match the reality.

Of course. I say this much. Over a dozen visits, yet mostly as a tourist and one business (which means you don't get to see anything because you are in meetings and conferences all the time).

That's the nature of tourism, right? It's the fantasy of where we visit vs. the reality of it.

As I mentioned elsewhere, the philosophical core of my comment is more about freedom than anything else. It isn't aimed at the UK at all. In fact, the example I gave is about the US.

We can apply this to working a job or company one dislikes. The highest expression of freedom is to leave and find a job one might enjoy and a company that appreciates what one might contribute.

It's about freedom. One can choose to stay and endure, hoping things change. That, too, is freedom.

> Why didn't Cromwell just leave??

Matters of history at that level are far more complex than the idea of mere peasants like us seeking a better life and better outcomes by choosing the playing field --whether that means career, employer or where we live.

As I mentioned in another comment, as you get older you tend to move away from complexity and stress in your life. When one it in their 20's it is easy to think about being a revolutionary. Later in life those ideas tend to lose their shine very quickly. The only people who live in that kind of mayhem are, for the most part, the politicians who get to directly benefit from driving masses of young people into resonance with ideology and movements that benefit them --often at the expense of everyone else.

BTW, thanks for the insight into "why don't you leave" in the UK. I think that is somewhat universal. I know there are idiots in the US who use that kind of language. I hope it is obvious that isn't what I was saying or implying at all.

I am talking about exercising the freedom to choose who will benefit from your contributions to society or your work. This isn't about nations. There are places in the US I would not live in because I know I would be miserable. A simple example, I am an atheist. I don't think I would be happy in some of the more intensely religious areas of this country. I don't have a problem with those who are religious, just not my thing and I prefer not to have it in my face all day, every day.

It's about freedom.

Re: Anti-royal protesters are being arrested in the U.K. as 'Not My King' tag grows

#668

Post by ncmncm »

AnimalMuppet wrote: post #657
ncmncm wrote: post #637

Earlier quoted context omitted.

W did it first. So, no, citing W doing it first is not "slanted". Instead, claiming that Obama and Trump also violating their public trust makes my observation "slanted" is actively dishonest: I said that W did it first, and W did it first. Period.

https://theculturetrip.com/asia/japan/articles/to-bow-or-not... HW, not W. And maybe others before; HW is just the first I found a reference to. (Also Clinton.) So it seems to have happened a lot more than I thought...

Bowing to someone who bows back is just a greeting.

Re: Anti-royal protesters are being arrested in the U.K. as 'Not My King' tag grows

#669

Post by lamby »

soared wrote: post #386
esharte wrote: post #385

The issue is the "Mourning period" is being used as cover to crown a new monarch with no opposition. People are being told "not now", and how disrespectful they are. This is by design. Meanwhile it's somehow not disrespectful to replace the Queen within hours.

How would a monarch have opposition?

I think that's OP's point.

Re: Anti-royal protesters are being arrested in the U.K. as 'Not My King' tag grows

#670

Post by brigandish »

wutbrodo wrote: post #656
brigandish wrote: post #264

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> limiting his protest to the incoming coronation. The coronation is months away, he was protesting the ascension at the Queen's funeral procession . That does not avoid disparagement of the Queen. I certainly don't think he should be arrested but he's clearly boneheaded. He'll have plenty of time to protest both the ascension and the coronation, of someone who is a much softer target that the Queen, especially consi…

The coronation has not happened, but the proclamation has: https://www.bbc.com/news/av/uk-62873235 Symon Hill was arrested for protesting at the regional proclamation in Oxford: https://www.oxfordmail.co.uk/news/21275817.photo-gallery-pro... Where did you get the impression that this was a funeral procession?

Because, for whatever reason, I read the article then promptly dumped the information about his arrest in Oxford and conflated it with the arrests at the funeral procession on the way to St. Giles' Cathedral.

Which means it was still not a coronation, it also wasn't a funeral procession, I still think he's boneheaded but not as much as before or nearly as much as the ones in Edinburgh, and none of them should've been arrested (maybe perhaps the one that shouted at Prince Andrew, but definitely not the others).

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