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Gödel, Escher, Bach: an in-depth explainer

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Re: Gödel, Escher, Bach: an in-depth explainer

#31

Post by Brusco_RF »

Judgmentality wrote: post #21
cdot2 wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And there are many who arent. I doubt there's a statistical corollation.

It just shows you can be an avid drug user and still make enormous contributions to STEM. It only takes n=1 to provide a counterexample to an absolute like "drugs never produce anything substantial."

That's quite the strawman, I don't know anyone who says that. And if they did I would ask them if they drank coffee or if they were aware that a good chunk of young professionals are on ADHD medication

Re: Gödel, Escher, Bach: an in-depth explainer

#32

Post by patcon »

svat wrote: post #23

IMO, to read GEB for its content would be missing the point: what I think is the greatest thing about the book is that it's simply, purely, Hofstadter having fun . The linked post says "GEB is really idiosyncratic in a way no one can imitate", but I'd put it as: it's a deeply personal book. The author's personality shines through in a way I had not encountered before in a mathematics text, and so the book was a revel…

I've never read it, but I can tell it has something deep to say, due to have channeling the knowledge learnings into the production of the knowledge object has brought so much joy and intrigue and life-changing epiphanies to readers. I mean, there must be some deep truth to the content, if the execution of said content (in the form of the book) is so touching to so many people... :)

Re: Gödel, Escher, Bach: an in-depth explainer

#34

Post by nathias »

GEB is one of the best works of modern philosophy, I don't think the reviewer gets the point, the story of formal systems and the structures that determine them are used as an analog for other systems that aren't formal to try and shed light on the process of ontological emergence of intelligence. If you are at least a bit interested in philosophy and computation, you should read GEB at least once.

Re: Gödel, Escher, Bach: an in-depth explainer

#35

Post by Judgmentality »

Brusco_RF wrote: post #31
Judgmentality wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It just shows you can be an avid drug user and still make enormous contributions to STEM. It only takes n=1 to provide a counterexample to an absolute like "drugs never produce anything substantial."

That's quite the strawman, I don't know anyone who says that. And if they did I would ask them if they drank coffee or if they were aware that a good chunk of young professionals are on ADHD medication

> commitment to the material in that depth is not the product of drugs

You think this is saying drugs sometimes lead to commitment? It sure reads like an absolute statement to me.

Re: Gödel, Escher, Bach: an in-depth explainer

#36

Post by mav88 »

davesque wrote: post #10

I've read GEB over many years rather in the way someone would read the Bible. I pick it up from time to time and enjoy chewing on one or two chapters of material. But I've yet to figure out if the book actually has a specific thesis. I know it's all about the power of interpretation and the way in which interpreting a formal system as self-referencing has the effect of completely blowing up the intended design of tha…

The central thesis of GEB is this: what is a self? From the preface of the 20th anniversary edition:

"GEB is a very personal attempt to say how it is that animate beings can come out of inanimate matter. What is a self, and how can a self come out of stuff that is as selfless as a stone or a puddle?"

Re: Gödel, Escher, Bach: an in-depth explainer

#37

Post by adamnemecek »

The underlying idea is the idea of fixed points (aka spectra, diagonalizations, embedding, invariants, braids). By fixed point I mean something like the "Lawvere's fixed point theorem". https://ncatlab.org/nlab/show/Lawvere%27s+fixed+point+theore...

I have a linkdump on this https://github.com/adamnemecek/adjoint

I also have a discord https://discord.gg/mr9TAhpyBW

Re: Gödel, Escher, Bach: an in-depth explainer

#38

Post by patcon »

widowlark wrote: post #13
mistrial9 wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

commitment to the material in that depth is not the product of drugs

Thank you so much for saying this, I find this misconception deeply insulting

(upvoted!) can you say more about this sensibility of yours? I'm genuinely intrigued, as I haven't heard a take like that before :)

At risk of asking a leading question: is it some idea that deep truth should come from reason rather than the noise and chaos of psychedelics? (I don't do them myself, but hold them in very high regard as a force in the world)

Re: Gödel, Escher, Bach: an in-depth explainer

#39

Post by jstanley »

> Gödel's Incompleteness Theorem: any sufficiently rich formal system, together with an interpretation, has strings which are true but unprovable.

This is only half of it!

Gödel's Incompleteness Theorem states that any sufficiently rich formal system, together with an interpretation, either has strings which are true but unprovable or has strings which are provable but untrue. Either is possible! In practice people prefer to have true things that can't be proven rather than provable things that are untrue. But either is possible.

Re: Gödel, Escher, Bach: an in-depth explainer

#40

Post by Workaccount2 »

stinkytaco wrote: post #14
kenjackson wrote: post #7

Is there a good book that is similar in spirit, but doesn't require the maturity of GEB? I know an 8th grader that would be a great target, but I don't know if they have the mathematical/logical maturity to get through it.

Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance comes to mind immediately. It works on several levels and is very accessible as a result. If you wanted to stray from the spirit of GEB into narrative prose, there are a number of books I could recommend, especially in science fiction.

ZMM is a great philosophy intro book. It's captivating and will get you in that "deep thinking mode" while never getting too overly dense. The actual core philosophy is a bit meh, but it really doesn't matter since the book is loaded with general good insight.

+1

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