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Anti-royal protesters are being arrested in the U.K. as 'Not My King' tag grows

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Re: Anti-royal protesters are being arrested in the U.K. as 'Not My King' tag grows

#591

Post by throwawaylinux »

gambiting wrote: post #567
throwawaylinux wrote: post #283

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The mindset is alien to me. The idea that a person should be locked up for making a joke, but a corporation should have the right to do whatever it likes. It doesn't even seem like it's ever in question just stated like a fact that the wealthy and powerful should have more rights. Perhaps that's the British psyche of meek subservience to the ruling class. The really funny thing is that poor pleb is branded a "fascist…

>>The idea that a person should be locked up for making a joke, but a corporation should have the right to do whatever it likes. I don't think anyone has this kind of mindset - at least I certainly don't. Anyone should be arrested for joking with nazi salutes, no matter if they are rich or poor. Not sure why you think that corporations get away with it - is there any corporation out there that uploads "joke" nazi sal…

> I don't think anyone has this kind of mindset

Oh I think they do. They won't admit it when you put it like that of course, many probably don't even admit it to themselves because they simultaneously see themselves also as resistance fighters raging against powerful established interests, on behalf of the oppressed.

> I don't find this funny at all,

I wasn't talking about the content of the joke. I think nazi jokes can be pretty hilarious though, especially the ones where they do mock salutes. Perhaps you just have to appreciate a bit of good old British humor to feel that way, though.

> glorifying nazi imagery(and yes, "joke" nazi salutes achieve exactly that) is no laughing matter.

I believe you probably genuinely think a pug doing a salute is glorifying nazis, that nobody else could reasonably disagree, and that society needs to be protected from this and stamping it out by locking up commoners who dare to defy the state edicts.

> You mean....the police?

The police, the prosecutors, the judges, the legislators. Sure.

> I think people here just don't get it - making Nazi salutes even as a joke is not acceptable in European societies.

At least when it comes to the UK, I don't think so. The British are known for doing comedies of the war and nazis almost from the start. They have had a very long tradition of joking about nazis including mocking their salutes, as well as giving their rich and ruling class a double standard about it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ddWNMSUbcGI

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lb5zUG9UzFE

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qWjCkcAmzDc

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hWIyVRNAxCg

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f--KSEkC8Ik

https://www.thenews.com.pk/assets/uploads/updates/2020-10-06...

This one's even a recent German comedy featuring Hitler himself doing a nazi salute!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rUZi67BmY_M

So no I think you're wrong, it's revisionist to say that satirizing nazis including and mocking their salutes was some big offensive taboo.

Re: Anti-royal protesters are being arrested in the U.K. as 'Not My King' tag grows

#592

Post by johnthewise »

tablespoon wrote: post #462
brainfish wrote: post #444

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If there's just one British constitution and everyone agrees on it, then it seems like writing it down would be pretty trivial.

> If there's just one British constitution and everyone agrees on it, then it seems like writing it down would be pretty trivial. Honestly, a country can have a universally recognized and respected written constitution without "everyone agree[ing] on it." See United States of America, Constitution Of .

But those who do not agree with it do not have any other custom or tradition which they claim is actually the constitution. Original claim stands on the argument that if there was really a single constitution, it would be trivial to write it down, not that everyone needs to agree on it, which is not a viable criteria anyway to test if something is constitution or not.

Re: Anti-royal protesters are being arrested in the U.K. as 'Not My King' tag grows

#593

Post by [deleted] »

phpthrowaway99 wrote: post #378
austinjp wrote: post #327

The UK media (not just the BBC) continue to profess "amazement" at the speed and efficiency of the transitioning from a dead monarch to a living one. There's been much speaking in awed tones at the pace of the various proclamations, committee meetings, document signings, etc, as if this pace tells us why we should be impressed. Personally I've found it borderline sickening. If there was a curtain that could have slip…

You say it's not okay. I say it is. Unless you have something more this is basically just a random opinion stated as if it wasn't an opinion.

[deleted]

Re: Anti-royal protesters are being arrested in the U.K. as 'Not My King' tag grows

#594

Post by ck425 »

midoridensha wrote: post #325
ck425 wrote: post #199

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I live in Edinburgh. Can confirm major disruption and likely costs based on the sheer number of police and event staff I've seen just walking through town.

>Can confirm major disruption and likely costs based on the sheer number of police and event staff I've seen just walking through town. To be fair, when you consider that the Queen lived for 96 years and there hasn't been an event like this since 1953, the cost spread out over that much time really isn't that much. Long live the King!! (to keep costs down)

I'm not overly concerned by cost given how much the procession seems to matter to so many people. But I do think people should be allowed to protest if they wish given we tax payers are paying for it.

This isn't a private funeral. Hell it's not even a funeral, it's a procession and a tax payer funded public event as well. I can _maybe_ get asking the person with the "fuck imperialism" sign to not use a sign with "fuck" on it (Don't mind myself but I know plenty of old folk will) but there's absolutely nothing wrong with someone declaring "Not my King".

On the plus side we now have viral examples of how Tory policies have in fact stepped on freedom of speech, contrary to their claims.

Re: Anti-royal protesters are being arrested in the U.K. as 'Not My King' tag grows

#595

Post by samatman »

gambiting wrote: post #567
throwawaylinux wrote: post #283

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The mindset is alien to me. The idea that a person should be locked up for making a joke, but a corporation should have the right to do whatever it likes. It doesn't even seem like it's ever in question just stated like a fact that the wealthy and powerful should have more rights. Perhaps that's the British psyche of meek subservience to the ruling class. The really funny thing is that poor pleb is branded a "fascist…

>>The idea that a person should be locked up for making a joke, but a corporation should have the right to do whatever it likes. I don't think anyone has this kind of mindset - at least I certainly don't. Anyone should be arrested for joking with nazi salutes, no matter if they are rich or poor. Not sure why you think that corporations get away with it - is there any corporation out there that uploads "joke" nazi sal…

> at least I certainly don't.

You absolutely do, and spend several paragraphs justifying it, I'm terribly embarrassed on your behalf that I had to read that.

Re: Anti-royal protesters are being arrested in the U.K. as 'Not My King' tag grows

#596

Post by gambiting »

samatman wrote: post #595
gambiting wrote: post #567

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>>The idea that a person should be locked up for making a joke, but a corporation should have the right to do whatever it likes. I don't think anyone has this kind of mindset - at least I certainly don't. Anyone should be arrested for joking with nazi salutes, no matter if they are rich or poor. Not sure why you think that corporations get away with it - is there any corporation out there that uploads "joke" nazi sal…

> at least I certainly don't. You absolutely do, and spend several paragraphs justifying it, I'm terribly embarrassed on your behalf that I had to read that.

You really think that I believe a common person should be arrested for something, yet the same thing should be allowed for a corporation? Where have I justified that?????

Re: Anti-royal protesters are being arrested in the U.K. as 'Not My King' tag grows

#597

Post by seydor »

eternalban wrote: post #584
seydor wrote: post #583

Earlier quoted context omitted.

yes it is dead. this elaborate show is useful to some businesses but irrelevant to the rest of the world. Whatever 'power' comes with celebrity, it's impossible no to have a 'peaceful transition of power' when one of the parties has kicked the bucket.

> it's impossible no to have a 'peaceful transition of power' when one of the parties has kicked the bucket. I don't think [this is] how power works, specially in a monarchy. Peaceful transition means the power base that has given fealty to Mr. X is now accepting Mr. Y. That is the 'transition'.

So they can swear allegiance to a dead person?

Re: Anti-royal protesters are being arrested in the U.K. as 'Not My King' tag grows

#598

Post by mrcsd »

retcore wrote: post #440
mrcsd wrote: post #399

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's not correct, crown consent cannot stop a vote. And regardless of this, parliament is sovereign [0], that supremacy overrides any power any monarch could have in the UK. [0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parliamentary_sovereignty

The Crown actually has legislative veto, approval and elective immunity via this intervention prior to the release of draft legislation prior to parliamentary debate: https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/series/queens-consent

It's a fair point that obstructing draft legislation is a kind of de facto prohibiting of votes, even if crown consent does not enable stopping a vote directly. But in practice I don’t think consent could possibly be used this way without the tacit approval of the government (like with the prorogation of parliament case). I brought up parliamentary sovereignty above precisely because of this. If parliament is sovereign then ultimately the limits of crown consent are for parliament to decide. So the crown does not truly have a binding veto, if that veto can be removed or undone by parliament.

That said, it would be very interesting if such a veto was attempted and it went to court, we’d get to see more constitutional clarification in action!

Re: Anti-royal protesters are being arrested in the U.K. as 'Not My King' tag grows

#599

Post by gambiting »

throwawaylinux wrote: post #591
gambiting wrote: post #567

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>>The idea that a person should be locked up for making a joke, but a corporation should have the right to do whatever it likes. I don't think anyone has this kind of mindset - at least I certainly don't. Anyone should be arrested for joking with nazi salutes, no matter if they are rich or poor. Not sure why you think that corporations get away with it - is there any corporation out there that uploads "joke" nazi sal…

> I don't think anyone has this kind of mindset Oh I think they do. They won't admit it when you put it like that of course, many probably don't even admit it to themselves because they simultaneously see themselves also as resistance fighters raging against powerful established interests, on behalf of the oppressed. > I don't find this funny at all, I wasn't talking about the content of the joke. I think nazi jokes…

>>I believe you probably genuinely think a pug doing a salute is glorifying nazis, that nobody else could reasonably disagree, and that society needs to be protected from this and stamping it out by locking up commoners who dare to defy the state edicts.

I think the society needs to be protected from trivialization of Nazi gestures and symbology, not from pugs on youtube specifically. I know you are trying to reduce it to absolute absurdity so my argument can be easily dismissed, but I'm sure you can also see how it wouldn't be appropriate to have a short Tik Tok video of someone making a Nazi salute and then saying "it's just a joke, everyone relax". No one got hurt, they only did it for the views, but it still wouldn't be ok - not because we want to live in a society of oppresion and censorship, but because using a nazi salute as a joke in itself without any context(context like in all the examples you posted) is poor taste at best. Can we at least agree on that?

>> it's revisionist to say that satirizing nazis including and mocking their salutes was some big offensive taboo.

I also live in the UK, and I think we are arguing about two separate things. One is mocking nazis in art and media - there you are absolutely correct, there is a history there and it is generally allowed.

What I'm pointing out is that I don't believe European societies accept Nazi salutes as jokes pretty much anywhere outside of art/comedy/standup context. Go to a party in the UK and start marching with your hand raised up straight, if anyone complains say "it's a joke bro" - see how fast you get kicked out. My bet is very very very fast.

That's my entire feeling about this - that a random short YT clip of nazi salutes is the equivalent of that "it's a joke bro" mentality. It's not allowed not because we love oppression, it's not allowed because it trivializes something that has left such deep scars on our societies.

Re: Anti-royal protesters are being arrested in the U.K. as 'Not My King' tag grows

#600

Post by javajosh »

morelisp wrote: post #582
javajosh wrote: post #572

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Quoted post unavailable.

Bluntly, actual anthropology does not agree with this at all. It's some Enlightenment technocratic fantasy, so it's fitting you invoke Civ and not, like, a real survey.

If I am wrong, then you are being cruel to me simply for being ignorant. I personally do not find cruelty appealing, do you? Instead of cruel taunts that I'm on the wrong end of an information asymmetry, how about a link?

If I am right, and you know it, then you are arguing in bad faith attempting to derail the convo or just troll.

If I am right and you don't know it, and arguing in good faith, then I think the exercise of supporting your claim would be good for you. You might be surprised.

So: do you have a link to a "real survey" of the type you mean?

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