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Want jobs? Encourage immigration

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Re: Want jobs? Encourage immigration

#101

Post by anghyflawn »

dredmorbius wrote: post #64
potatolicious wrote: post #4

The US really needs to emulate other countries here. The problem here is that the "immigrant" visa is really the same thing as a work visa, and that leads to a great deal of abuse. For one thing, the eligibility is tied to an employer, who is incentivized to embellish, cheat, and otherwise finagle their way to a visa. The expectation that the visa is temporary also sets a lower bar for entry - even though many of the…

The only part of this screed I can strongly disagree with is the "emulate other countries" bit. As idiotic as US work/immigration policies are, most countries are far worse. Europe particularly. Commonwealth nations possibly excepted. In the developing / BRIC world, it's less bureaucracy and far more petty (and not so petty) corruption you have to deal with.

Actually, as a non-EU national living in Norway but currently looking for (academic) jobs everywhere, continental European immigration policies are not that bad. I came to Norway as a highly skilled migrant, and the process was more or less painless; after three years, I got my permanent residence, also with very little ado. I did have to take a language test, but only for the permanent residence, whereas in the UK I have to demonstrate proficiency in English before I can apply for a temporary work permit, even under Tier 2 (skilled migration).

Europe does not have a great track for entrepreneurs (though hopefully that will change with the blue card program), but at least my experience with ordinary skilled migration is overwhelmingly positive. And anybody who thinks there is less bureaucracy in the developing world is highly likely to be living in a dream. At least in Russia the corruption comes on top of the ridiculous red tape.

Re: Want jobs? Encourage immigration

#102

Post by teyc »

cletus wrote: post #87
ryaniscool wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I do agree that the US immigration system sucks. As an Australian, you may not realize the current state of immigration policy in your own country. I'm an American and I live and work in Sydney. I came in on the 457 subclass visa. Not sure if you're familiar with it. It's pretty much the same as the H1B (No E-3 equivalent in the other direction unfortunately). The employer has to prove the job can't be filled by a do…

Firstly, you're quite right: I'm not aware of how the 457 works in Australia since (obviously) I don't have to get one. My understanding though is that in spite of the problems you brought up (which are news to me), at least processing is very quick and the process itself doesn't seem to be subject to as much politicking as the US system (IMHO). As for the health insurance [1], this is definitely news to me and I'm a…

Immigrant living in Australia writing here.

The problem in Australia is it can get rather parochial, especially in areas such as medicine. In contrast, the US is more open in this regard.

The degree of difficulty to immigrate to US or Australia is relatively similar. Therefore, it is difficult to say that more immigration will create more jobs. Rather, there are some deep seated structural problems with the US economy at present, and the way Australia copies the US in all manner of politics, it will not be long before these problems arrive at our shores.

Re: Want jobs? Encourage immigration

#103

Post by teyc »

kiba wrote: post #3

Jobs. It would seems that we have an obsession with creating jobs. If you hear politicians, and if my perception are right, they talk about jobs. Not whether or not we get more purchasing power than ever before. Not whether or not our lifestyle is more fulfilling than ever before. Jobs. More jobs. Less jobs. More competitive Americans. No manufacturing jobs. Colleges not creating enough people to fill jobs. Robots ar…

US does have a net surplus in terms of basic necessities. If their welfare system can distribute it efficiently, then it would make having work less relevant, especially during times when there simply isn't enough work to go around.

Re: Want jobs? Encourage immigration

#104

Post by marshallp »

muzz wrote: post #72
marshallp wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

most european countries have such a xenophobic system, but the uk, canada, iraland, new zealand, and australia have really open systems in place

then those countries should be receiving the benefits of immigrant-entrepreneurs and now be hotbeds of innovation because of it. it doesn't seem like that's happening.

until recently, the uk got much of its tax base from the financial sector, much of which is run on the backs of immigrants (hedge funds and invesment banks), especially those from america

Re: Want jobs? Encourage immigration

#105

Post by gjm11 »

greenName wrote: post #17

Increase supply of labor, decrease wages. Econ 101, folks. The Wall Street types benefit from immigration. There might be "more jobs" but there will be lower pay checks. Working Americans are the targets in this upper class scam. Polls show that most Americans are for moderating immigration. Strangely, rich Democrats are the ones most for open borders and "free" trade. The party of labor? No way.

Decreased wages for those who have jobs, plus more people having jobs, might be an excellent tradeoff even if it wouldn't appeal to a 100% selfish person who has a job and doesn't fear losing it.

And you need to be awfully careful about what "polls show that most Americans are for". For example, polls show that most Americans would like to see US foreign aid reduced from about 25% of GDP to about 10% of the federal budget. The trouble is that the actual level of US foreign aid is about 1% of the federal budget. So, do "polls show" that most Americans would like foreign aid cut by 2.5x, or that most Americans would like foreign aid increased by 10x? -- In the absence of more information about what "most Americans" actually think the level of immigration is, and what they think its impact is, polls purporting to show that most Americans would like more or less immigration are pretty uninformative about what would actually benefit most Americans, or what they would choose if they had better information.

It would be better to keep party politics out of this. (Though from what you've written I wonder whether party politics are your only reason for being interested in the matter at all.)

Re: Want jobs? Encourage immigration

#106

Post by JSGraef »

_delirium wrote: post #20
potatolicious wrote: post #4

The US really needs to emulate other countries here. The problem here is that the "immigrant" visa is really the same thing as a work visa, and that leads to a great deal of abuse. For one thing, the eligibility is tied to an employer, who is incentivized to embellish, cheat, and otherwise finagle their way to a visa. The expectation that the visa is temporary also sets a lower bar for entry - even though many of the…

> The US really needs to emulate other countries here. Which other countries are these? As the holder of an employer-tied 3-year temporary Danish work permit, with no possibility to even apply for the Danish equivalent of a green card until I've resided in the country with solid employment for at least 4 years (and passed a language exam, something the U.S. doesn't require), I don't think it can be this one... Though…

I'm in quite a similar situation being in Switzerland, except I'm required to live (and work) here for 10 years before I can get the green card equivalent.

Getting the permit was the big problem, since not only does the company have to prove that domestic workers aren't suitable for the job, but also every worker in the EU. Thankfully, once you have it, it's very simple to renew.

If I'm not mistaken, the language exam only applies for naturalization, but even then you're still subject to an anonymous review by the people living near you as well as a "cultural exam" to see how well you've assimilated (among many other things, naturally).

Re: Want jobs? Encourage immigration

#108

Post by brc »

ryaniscool wrote: post #84
cletus wrote: post #69

The US immigration and visa situation is really quite horrendous. For example, I'm an Australian. That means I qualify for (and have) an E-3 visa. What's that you might ask? It's a special work visa created specifically for Australian nationals . It applies for two years and can be renewed indefinitely. What's more, unlike an H1B visa, it's not subject to quotas and the employer doesn't first need to "prove" they cou…

I do agree that the US immigration system sucks. As an Australian, you may not realize the current state of immigration policy in your own country. I'm an American and I live and work in Sydney. I came in on the 457 subclass visa. Not sure if you're familiar with it. It's pretty much the same as the H1B (No E-3 equivalent in the other direction unfortunately). The employer has to prove the job can't be filled by a do…

I don't think it's fair to conflate the issue of illegal boat arrivals with immigration.

Most Australians are OK with immigration in principle and practice. It is, as already described, a nation of immigrants.

The thing they don't like is the people smuggling business bringing in those who claim refugee status, after destroying their documents saying who they are. I think the general attitude is - you can immigrate, just get in line and fill out the forms like everyone else.

You may see this as the same but I don't think the average person on the street does.

Re: Want jobs? Encourage immigration

#109

Post by brc »

cletus wrote: post #87
ryaniscool wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I do agree that the US immigration system sucks. As an Australian, you may not realize the current state of immigration policy in your own country. I'm an American and I live and work in Sydney. I came in on the 457 subclass visa. Not sure if you're familiar with it. It's pretty much the same as the H1B (No E-3 equivalent in the other direction unfortunately). The employer has to prove the job can't be filled by a do…

Firstly, you're quite right: I'm not aware of how the 457 works in Australia since (obviously) I don't have to get one. My understanding though is that in spite of the problems you brought up (which are news to me), at least processing is very quick and the process itself doesn't seem to be subject to as much politicking as the US system (IMHO). As for the health insurance [1], this is definitely news to me and I'm a…

I saw an article in a British paper last week. It basically said the UK-Australia people flow is drastically declining.

They went on about a whole lot of made-up factors like people missing their families and the rest, but the simple fact of the matter is that the cost of living in Australia is out of control.

It used to be you could sell your crappy 2 bedroom semi in an outer London suburb and move to a nice big home in Australia, and have plenty of money left over to send the kids to a good school.

Nowadays that's not the case.

Same for the young Australian - you used to be able to go to London for a couple of years, save up your money and come back with a decent stash of savings. Also no longer the case.

Honestly I think Australia is choking on it's property prices which has fuelled massive debts. It's why your chicken sandwich costs $15, because the rents are out of control because of the price the owner paid for the shop.

W/regards to not having access to Australian healthcare, I already knew that because I met a NZ guy ages ago who explained the whole deal. Not sure what the situation is now but back when the conversation took place there was no reciprocal agreement and people from NZ had to pay full-freight to get access to healthcare.

Re: Want jobs? Encourage immigration

#110

Post by Zakharov »

brc wrote: post #109
cletus wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Firstly, you're quite right: I'm not aware of how the 457 works in Australia since (obviously) I don't have to get one. My understanding though is that in spite of the problems you brought up (which are news to me), at least processing is very quick and the process itself doesn't seem to be subject to as much politicking as the US system (IMHO). As for the health insurance [1], this is definitely news to me and I'm a…

I saw an article in a British paper last week. It basically said the UK-Australia people flow is drastically declining. They went on about a whole lot of made-up factors like people missing their families and the rest, but the simple fact of the matter is that the cost of living in Australia is out of control. It used to be you could sell your crappy 2 bedroom semi in an outer London suburb and move to a nice big hom…

Well, the Australian dollar has doubled in value. That makes it much harder to migrate.
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