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Li-ion battery warehouse fire put out with Portland cement (2021)

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Re: Li-ion battery warehouse fire put out with Portland cement (2021)

#61

Post by almost_usual »

zelon88 wrote: post #60
ClumsyPilot wrote: post #19

Lithium battery fire cannot be 'put out'- in a normal sense. A fuel tank of petrol needs oxygen to burn, and when you spray foam on it your cut off the oxygen and the fire stops. A battery already contains energy, all the chemicals required for the reaction are already present, and once the energy release starts, sealing it from the environment does not stop the process. Ebike and drone batteries are large enough to…

I often wonder about this while hiking or riding my dirt bike out on the trails. Gas powered dirt bikes are prohibited almost everywhere due to risk of fire and chemical contamination. However, more and more I am seeing e-bikes ripping around on hiking trails that would get me and my dirt bikes a hefty fine and impound. The risk of fire and contamination is practically the same. And these e-bikes are typically driven…

I’m surprised e-bikes are allowed, they’re also prohibited on the trails here and considered OHV.

Regarding fire I’d be worried about the hot exhaust on a dry 100+ day.

Re: Li-ion battery warehouse fire put out with Portland cement (2021)

#62

Post by hereyougo2 »

ohiovr wrote: post #46

Chernobyl was extinguished by tons of sand and boron.

It was thought by some that the core fire was extinguished by a combined effort of helicopters dropping more than 5,000 tonnes (11 million pounds) of sand, lead, clay, and neutron-absorbing boron onto the burning reactor. It is now known that virtually none of these materials reached the core.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chernobyl_disaster

Re: Li-ion battery warehouse fire put out with Portland cement (2021)

#63

Post by scythe »

zelon88 wrote: post #60
ClumsyPilot wrote: post #19

Lithium battery fire cannot be 'put out'- in a normal sense. A fuel tank of petrol needs oxygen to burn, and when you spray foam on it your cut off the oxygen and the fire stops. A battery already contains energy, all the chemicals required for the reaction are already present, and once the energy release starts, sealing it from the environment does not stop the process. Ebike and drone batteries are large enough to…

I often wonder about this while hiking or riding my dirt bike out on the trails. Gas powered dirt bikes are prohibited almost everywhere due to risk of fire and chemical contamination. However, more and more I am seeing e-bikes ripping around on hiking trails that would get me and my dirt bikes a hefty fine and impound. The risk of fire and contamination is practically the same. And these e-bikes are typically driven…

It's my understanding that e-bikes which can ride on traditional "bike" trails (I'm used to this rule for bike lanes) are limited to a relatively human-accessible speed, usually 15 or 20 mph in the US. Are these e-bike riders going faster than that? If so, they might be breaking the law.

I had assumed dirt bikes were banned on these trails due to weight and speed, leading to damage to the trail, risks to other trail users and potential structural failure of the often wooden bridges. The risk of fire with a modern gasoline engine is quite small, though air quality effects are significant.

Re: Li-ion battery warehouse fire put out with Portland cement (2021)

#64

Post by ben-schaaf »

Arubis wrote: post #47
elihu wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the standard procedure in EV car fires is to just dump water on it to conduct the heat away as fast as possible, and to keep dumping water on it until the batteries can no longer self-ignite -- which can take awhile.

Possibly amateurish take: dumping water on an alkali metal seems like not a great idea (unless you want _more_ fire, in which case by all means go for it)

It's important to actually know the battery chemistry here. Lithium batteries contain metal lithium and as you say dumping water on them is not a good idea. Lithium-ion and lithium polymer on the other hand only contain lithium polymers that don't combust with water.

Re: Li-ion battery warehouse fire put out with Portland cement (2021)

#65

Post by ohiovr »

hereyougo2 wrote: post #62
ohiovr wrote: post #46

Chernobyl was extinguished by tons of sand and boron.

It was thought by some that the core fire was extinguished by a combined effort of helicopters dropping more than 5,000 tonnes (11 million pounds) of sand, lead, clay, and neutron-absorbing boron onto the burning reactor. It is now known that virtually none of these materials reached the core. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chernobyl_disaster

Sure can't put out a nuclear fire but the effort did do a lot to minimize burning radioactive carbon from getting out beyond the site. Its all they really could do. I was wondering why more cities don't try smothering battery fires with sand.

Re: Li-ion battery warehouse fire put out with Portland cement (2021)

#66

Post by z991 »

ClumsyPilot wrote: post #19

Lithium battery fire cannot be 'put out'- in a normal sense. A fuel tank of petrol needs oxygen to burn, and when you spray foam on it your cut off the oxygen and the fire stops. A battery already contains energy, all the chemicals required for the reaction are already present, and once the energy release starts, sealing it from the environment does not stop the process. Ebike and drone batteries are large enough to…

> there is no 'battery safety box' that I could readilly buy

Take a look at Bat-Safe LiPo boxes. They are designed to contain the heat and prevent your entire house from going up from a drone battery fire.

Re: Li-ion battery warehouse fire put out with Portland cement (2021)

#67

Post by bundon »

_wldu wrote: post #9

Off topic... What's the best way to easily recycle these batteries? I normally disassemble my old phones and securely dispose of the chips (for my privacy), but the batteries are glued in with a strong adhesive. Just trying to remove them can start a fire. I think most people just throw the old phones in the trash, but I don't like to do that. It's bad for the environment and potentially dangerous to trash workers. I…

If you drain the battery to zero charge first I think it's pretty safe

Re: Li-ion battery warehouse fire put out with Portland cement (2021)

#68

Post by kube-system »

_wldu wrote: post #9

Off topic... What's the best way to easily recycle these batteries? I normally disassemble my old phones and securely dispose of the chips (for my privacy), but the batteries are glued in with a strong adhesive. Just trying to remove them can start a fire. I think most people just throw the old phones in the trash, but I don't like to do that. It's bad for the environment and potentially dangerous to trash workers. I…

I dropped off my last lithium laptop battery at Best Buy.

Re: Li-ion battery warehouse fire put out with Portland cement (2021)

#70

Post by zelon88 »

almost_usual wrote: post #61
zelon88 wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I often wonder about this while hiking or riding my dirt bike out on the trails. Gas powered dirt bikes are prohibited almost everywhere due to risk of fire and chemical contamination. However, more and more I am seeing e-bikes ripping around on hiking trails that would get me and my dirt bikes a hefty fine and impound. The risk of fire and contamination is practically the same. And these e-bikes are typically driven…

I’m surprised e-bikes are allowed, they’re also prohibited on the trails here and considered OHV. Regarding fire I’d be worried about the hot exhaust on a dry 100+ day.

Most trail bikes come from the factory with spark arrestors with the major exception being cheap Chinese branded bikes.

And I don't think the temperature of the exhaust stream would be enough to light a match 6" away from the tip of the muffler. You'd have to reef on the bike and park it in a pile of dry leaves up to the exhaust header for temperature alone to start a fire.

The problem is when you dump the bike. If you dump it on a tree or a rock you can fracture the gas tank (releasing fuel) or the crankcase (releasing oil). Or if you tip the bike completely over the fuel will eventually be released. Releasing these doesn't imply fire is inevitable. You still need ignition. If a fire starts you can try to smother it.

On an electric bike the same situation applies. If you dump the bike and fracture the battery (that is often attached to the downtube of the frame) then you will have a catastrophic chemical reaction. Thermal runaway is almost guaranteed. You can't even put it out by smothering it.

Furthermore, most lithium battery controllers in consumer devices are proprietary and most consumers have no idea what their true capabilities and thresholds are. Some batteries might be inherently safer than others due to simple firmware that they don't know exists and have no visibility into. There's really no hiding the capabilities of an analog machine.

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