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Investors sue Treasury Department for blacklisting crypto platform Tornado Cash

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Re: Investors sue Treasury Department for blacklisting crypto platform Tornado Cash

#491
post #450

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Have you ever tried to make a wire transfer on a weekend? Having access to your money outside of banking hours is just one of many use cases I can think of off the top of my head.

SEPA Instant works in seconds regardless of time of day. Next question?

Not everyone lives in the eurozone my friend.

Re: Investors sue Treasury Department for blacklisting crypto platform Tornado Cash

#492

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Have you ever tried to make a wire transfer on a weekend? Having access to your money outside of banking hours is just one of many use cases I can think of off the top of my head.

The vast majority of the time, you don't need a wire transfer. And if your debit/credit card doesn't work on the weekend, you need a new bank; That's not the fault of banking as a whole.

Sure. But, examples like buying a high end guitar off criagslist, or a car from a private party, aren't less of a use case because they aren't every day transactions.

Re: Investors sue Treasury Department for blacklisting crypto platform Tornado Cash

#493

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My poor, so-very-put-upon friend: you can choose to leave . But there is a collectively hashed-out social contract you accept by staying, and it should be of no surprise that the law takes that contract as table stakes and acts according to it.

US Citizens can't leave. They must pay tribute to the United States globally and beyond until they die. Income earned in outer space is taxed as income earned in country.

But they can? You can always give up your citizenship as many have.

Or you can choose to live in a country that has a tax treaty with US; either way you get to deduct local tax rate paid so you're not double taxed.

Re: Investors sue Treasury Department for blacklisting crypto platform Tornado Cash

#495

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> not tell the customer that their transaction is flagged The teller is not allowed to disclose this to customer. > Any numbers you will see might be from the government In my experience, the board of directors of the bank get a monthly roll-up of the numbers.

Yeah, but those numbers are not reported beyond those parties and for a good reason. That is why I listed FinCEN as a source, because they typically put some data out.. just nothing that could be useful for this discussion.

I suspect a federal open records request could get a count by month. Would need to craft request so it is clearly not going to ask for detailed info. And be ready to sue if they deny the request.

Re: Investors sue Treasury Department for blacklisting crypto platform Tornado Cash

#496

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Structuring though is one of the dumbest, laziest and most arbitrary law ever. If you say that the limit is, say, max 100 K USD for something but plan to attack for structuring the person who did 5 times 100 K USD, then simply make the law clearer: make the law say 100 K USD max and, say, max 200 K USD over five years. But don't come after people who did respect the numbers written in the law for "structuring". It's…

I must say that I dislike the rationale for banning structuring. It's basically a law that bans attempts to comply with the letter of another law without complying with its spirit. Complying with any law should be completely straightforward.

I must say that I dislike the rationale for banning structuring.

So there are two possibilities.

1. You think the government shouldn't be allowed to track money laundering

2. You have a suggestion on improving money laundering tracking without anti-structuring laws

If you believe the government has a legitimate vested interest in stopping money laundering and you set a $10,000 limit before something must be reported, the reporting requirement might as well not exist if someone can deposit $9999.99 literally 100 times per day without a report being generated.

So what would your suggestion be on how to track money laundering? Or do you just think that's none of the government's business?

Re: Investors sue Treasury Department for blacklisting crypto platform Tornado Cash

#497

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They apply to what the president can apply them to. So if he's able to apply them to code, then they do apply.

I think the First Amendment might have something to say on the matter of "the president" unilaterally prohibiting people from interacting with code, something that has already been determined to be protected by the right.

I doubt the court will second-guess the administration on this.

Re: Investors sue Treasury Department for blacklisting crypto platform Tornado Cash

#498

Earlier quoted context omitted.

An ATM machine is not protected as speech. Courts have consistently ruled that software is protected speech. So, yes blockchains do make a substantial difference because they divorce the act of writing software (protected by the 1st Amendment) from the act of operating the business around that software. SCOTUS has consistently required an extremely high bar to regulating speech, so it's simply not enough to say "well…

An ATM isn't a dog either. Executing code isn't free speech. The code may be. The execution not so much.

Contract devs don't execute the code. They simply broadcast the it to the Ethereum network. Deploying a contract is conceptually no different than publishing source code to GitHub. It's actually the Ethereum node operators that execute the code. (Hence why the contract devs can't stop a running smart contract.)

If you want to make the argument that the persons executing the code are liable, than it should be the Ethereum network nodes, not the developer who deployed the smart contract. As it stands, it's pretty unlikely that the Treasury department has the political capital or the operational reach to shut down Ethereum. And that's why blockchain is different.

Re: Investors sue Treasury Department for blacklisting crypto platform Tornado Cash

#499

Earlier quoted context omitted.

450m is a whopping 6% of all deposits on Tornado Cash[1]. The total percentage of illicit activity on the protocol is reported to be in the 10-30% range[2]. What percentage of activity in an E2EE chat application like Matrix is illicit? If a significant but minority percentage of its use is facilitating criminal discussion, should those open protocols also be sanctioned? [1] https://dune.com/poma/tornado-cash_1 [2] h…

It's worth noting your second reference only mentions illicit activity volume in passing, linking to this study as a source: https://blog.chainalysis.com/reports/crypto-mixer-criminal-v... It's also worth noting the headline of that link: "Crypto Mixer Usage Reaches All-time Highs in 2022, With Nation State Actors and Cybercriminals Contributing Significant Volume" Quoting from later in that study, "Overall, if we la…

I will point out that of the 170 or so nations recognized widely on Earth right now.. many or most have changed borders substantially, pretty recently.. and almost every one has changed leadership and political control. The concept of a Nation being illegal somehow is related to markets control and military alliances.. I am not convinced that individuals from the three or four major world powers get to declare whole nations with different law, to simply be illegal.

Re: Investors sue Treasury Department for blacklisting crypto platform Tornado Cash

#500
post #390

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Tornado Cash is a service, _run by an individual_ who was warned to cease serving sanctioned entities, and failed to do so. This is false. The (vast majority of the) Tornado Cash contracts were either deployed to Ethereum as immutable contracts, or updated in 2020 to revoke mutability (once the final zkSNARK parameters were included) [0], meaning that they could not later be updated by the user(s) that deployed the…

>The (vast majority of the) Tornado Cash contracts Thousands of little contracts doesn't absolve a financial institution from a few many-billion dollar illegal transfers, especially after they've been warned repeatedly.

Thousands of different private keys doesn't absolve a corporation from billions of illicit conversations, especially after they have been warned repeatedly.
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