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Want jobs? Encourage immigration

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Re: Want jobs? Encourage immigration

#91

Post by nunb »

muzz wrote: post #8

If you read TechCrunch (Wadhwa's pieces especially) or the ABC article referenced, this piece contains absolutely nothing new, just a rehash of the same things. Sparse, suspect data, plenty of correlation/causation fallacies, and topped off with a populist appeal to "create jobs"

I've been seeing Wadwha's pieces all over the place, they are, as far as I can tell, completely rehashes of each other.

I believe in skilled immigration to the USA, and that the current system is badly b0rked (and in fact somewhat "geared" towards illegal immigration) but these articles, with their leaps of logic and poor reasoning strike me as a setback for any sort of immigration reform.

At least he's advocating, which is good, and given the low IQ of Congress, it probably doesn't matter that his articles leave much unanswered and generally fall short of being cogent arguments. But noise probably works better than cogency in this regard.

Re: Want jobs? Encourage immigration

#92

Post by nunb »

jnbiche wrote: post #29
wavephorm wrote: post #2

I distinctly remember 2001-2003 during in the post dot-com, post-911 recession when there was loud outcry to cancel all visas to open up jobs for American-born workers. And in subsequent years these ideas took on the form of erecting a wall around Mexico, and eliminating technology-related visa categories, and ending up in today's environment of extreme hostility toward business travellers at American ports of entry.

Do other business travelers experience this extreme hostility at US ports of entry? I don't do nearly as much international travel as I used to, so I'm really interested in hearing others' experiences.

Smaller ports of entry with smaller queues generally lead to more pleasant experiences. The HNL and RDU airports, for example, are very welcoming to tourist and business travellers.

Re: Want jobs? Encourage immigration

#93

Post by known »

I disagree. Unless USA aligns Immigrant & Non-immigrant Visas and Outsourcing to Caste system in India and Human Rights in China, American middle class will be destroyed. http://news.rediff.com/report/2009/sep/29/un-says-indias-cas... http://www.rediff.com/business/slide-show/slide-show-1-tech-...

Re: Want jobs? Encourage immigration

#94

Post by int3rnaut »

potatolicious wrote: post #88
muzz wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The piece cites companies like Google, eBay, and Yahoo. Can you provide three examples anywhere close to those in terms of number of jobs, in any industry? The benefit may indeed be non-zero, but it doesn't seem that the benefit is signficant.

RIM and ATI? One got acquired and continues to thrive, the other one is busy circling the drain - but both were innovative, significant employers, and remain so, on the scale of eBay and Yahoo. Both companies were founded by immigrants (Chinese for ATI, Greek/Turkish for RIM). Google is a juggernaut that I won't touch simply because they're such an outlier, even in the get-big-fast world of dotcoms. And let's be hone…

You mentioned Toronto, do you think the immigration policy has had a gigantic boon for the country, or for Toronto? I'm really just curious.

As a young Albertan, still living and breathing here, I question how well the 'cultural mosaic' has stood the test of time. Granted, I do see some good like you mentioned, but looking at some of the recent economic impact data (I'm not an expert in this field and have merely googled and wikapedia'd for my research) it does look like there are systemic struggles that have developed over the last 25 years and that good you mentioned, is fewer and far between. It's a really interesting point of discussion though, so thank you.

Re: Want jobs? Encourage immigration

#95

Post by muzz »

nobody314159265 wrote: post #53
aspensmonster wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not to put words in greenName's mouth, but I believe the assumption is that a New Yorker and a Californian both would expect appropriate compensation for their work. Regardless of whether a citizen of the United States studied here or abroad, he would still expect a salary commiserate with his qualifications. Someone who is effectively an indentured servant on an H1-B visa will take whatever is offered to him because…

Unless you gave the immigrants with STEM PhDs greencards. It just seems odd that a Yankee going to Texas is welcome but a foreigner taking the same job, paying the same US tax - but who was raised and educated at some other nations expense is somehow a threat.

> raised and educated at some other nations expense

These are paid for by the other nations, not by the individuals themselves and/or their families? I.e. other nations don't have students paying their own way through college or taking out student loans, or some combo of the two?

Re: Want jobs? Encourage immigration

#96

Post by akg_67 »

incosta wrote: post #66
akg_67 wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Foreign students have one year after graduation to find an employer, convert to H-1B and then ask the employer to sponsor the green card. Nothing wrong with this." From personal experience, everything is wrong with this H-1B visa (slavery to employer) and even with proposed Startup/ Entrepreneur Visa which again promotes slavery to "someone." If US is serious, they should allow 5 year unrestricted visa to all foreig…

I think H1-B waiting times to green cards should be reduced. But H1-B is a fairly reliable way to see that person is skilled/qualified. No reasonable employer would keep someone on a payroll if the person is not good, even as a "serf" (a paid serf, more accurately). Not so sure about green cards for recent students based on revenue/income of their business. We then have to ask the government to audit a lot of financi…

Someone with family resources is most probably a small portion of student population and they have other easier options to immigrate if they want (investor, marriage, to name a few).

The major problem with current system is on employer side. The H-1B created bodyshopper contractors because employers didn't want to hire foreigners directly and pay equivalent wage as other employees. Any visa system where majority of applicants leaves employer soon after receiving green card show the system is flawed. Applicant is a slave of employer and green card is his/her ticket to freedom.

There is no reason to believe that The proposed entrepreneur visa will not create bodyshopper VC or VC services firms. It will create again same slavery but now master will be a different group.

Even a simpler approach as I suggested may create bodyshopper universities.

Confirming revenue/income/number of employees through IRS Tax return is not as difficult. We already have some visa categories like investor and person of extra-ordinary abilities that require extensive proof and onus is on applicant.

Re: Want jobs? Encourage immigration

#97

Post by potatolicious »

int3rnaut wrote: post #94
potatolicious wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

RIM and ATI? One got acquired and continues to thrive, the other one is busy circling the drain - but both were innovative, significant employers, and remain so, on the scale of eBay and Yahoo. Both companies were founded by immigrants (Chinese for ATI, Greek/Turkish for RIM). Google is a juggernaut that I won't touch simply because they're such an outlier, even in the get-big-fast world of dotcoms. And let's be hone…

You mentioned Toronto, do you think the immigration policy has had a gigantic boon for the country, or for Toronto? I'm really just curious. As a young Albertan, still living and breathing here, I question how well the 'cultural mosaic' has stood the test of time. Granted, I do see some good like you mentioned, but looking at some of the recent economic impact data (I'm not an expert in this field and have merely goo…

I've personally lived in Vancouver, Toronto, Ottawa, Waterloo, and London (yeah, one of those is not like the others), and I've been to many other cities both urban, and rural. The immigration boon is nearly universal across the board in all the places I have been. I've worked in 3 industries in Canada - traditional mechanical engineering, software, and astrophysics. Immigrants are extremely dominant in all three, and many of the top names are first or second-generation. I think, for the most part, Canada's immigration policy has turned out remarkably well, and needs to be commended for rather deftly avoiding the common pitfall that plagues a lot of countries: integrating immigrants into the middle class, instead of letting them fall into minority ghettos.

It's not perfect - I'm sure if you look at the data you will still see an income gap between native-born Canadians and recent immigrants, but having lived on both sides of the border I have to say America's problems are at least an order of magnitude worse than ours. The socioeconomic stratification of immigrants in the US means that several ethnicities are automatically assumed to be poor and uneducated - an assumption that largely doesn't hold water in Canada. With the sad exception of the aboriginal population, there is no real ethnic group in Canada that's as systemically impoverished and and marginalized as the blacks and latinos are in the USA. Sure, we have ghettos, but by and large they're not defined along racial and ethnic lines. The wide gaps between races in the US really does encourage a very pervasive undercurrent of racism that's largely impolite to mention in company, but easily felt. I simply do not get the same vibe in Canada, and that's a very good thing.

Having never lived in AB though, I'm interested in hearing your perspectives on it - I know the racial/ethnic balance there is not quite the same as Vancouver or Toronto, so maybe the scene is different. I can tell you that in the extremely industrial town of London, Ontario, the economic stratification between immigrants and non-immigrants can be more easily felt, but even then for the most part the poverty that pervades that city is blind to race.

Re: Want jobs? Encourage immigration

#98

Post by rdl »

potatolicious wrote: post #88
muzz wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The piece cites companies like Google, eBay, and Yahoo. Can you provide three examples anywhere close to those in terms of number of jobs, in any industry? The benefit may indeed be non-zero, but it doesn't seem that the benefit is signficant.

RIM and ATI? One got acquired and continues to thrive, the other one is busy circling the drain - but both were innovative, significant employers, and remain so, on the scale of eBay and Yahoo. Both companies were founded by immigrants (Chinese for ATI, Greek/Turkish for RIM). Google is a juggernaut that I won't touch simply because they're such an outlier, even in the get-big-fast world of dotcoms. And let's be hone…

When did the US switch to "family reunification" (even for extremely distant relatives) as the primary form of immigration, and why?

Re: Want jobs? Encourage immigration

#100

Post by wtvanhest »

_delirium wrote: post #20
potatolicious wrote: post #4

The US really needs to emulate other countries here. The problem here is that the "immigrant" visa is really the same thing as a work visa, and that leads to a great deal of abuse. For one thing, the eligibility is tied to an employer, who is incentivized to embellish, cheat, and otherwise finagle their way to a visa. The expectation that the visa is temporary also sets a lower bar for entry - even though many of the…

> The US really needs to emulate other countries here. Which other countries are these? As the holder of an employer-tied 3-year temporary Danish work permit, with no possibility to even apply for the Danish equivalent of a green card until I've resided in the country with solid employment for at least 4 years (and passed a language exam, something the U.S. doesn't require), I don't think it can be this one... Though…

The US system obviously has issues, but there is no other country in the world with the same level of demand as the US so emulating another country makes no sense.
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