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Why Schools Don’t Educate (1990)

thesunmagazine.org

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Re: Why Schools Don’t Educate (1990)

#71

Post by jazzyjackson »

dieselgate wrote: post #68

This is a really well written article though I’m mixed in my agreements with it. Thought it was funny they mentioned the author “growing garlic” in the forward. It’s also curious to read about literacy rates before/after “compulsory” education and how they seemingly dropped - is this potentially because of different “standards” in defining literacy? I feel everything I’ve ever learned was “taught to myself” even thou…

> “you can lead a horse to water but you can’t make it drink”

this is an especially apt metaphor for compulsory education, because when a horse is thirsty, it is perfectly capable of finding water on its own

Re: Why Schools Don’t Educate (1990)

#72

Post by vector_spaces »

nosianu wrote: post #35
vector_spaces wrote: post #8

Wow, it's wild to see this here. About 20 years ago, a grief counselor I was seeing after the death of my mom shared this article with me after I told him about how school felt pointless and cruel. I stopped seeing that grief counselor not long after (I think my family couldn't afford to see him) but the impact of this essay was deep. It was the first piece of writing I had read by 14 that critiqued something as mund…

Just an unimportant comment about a minor aspect of what you wrote. > it's not quite as well written as I remember, Maybe because it is a speech? :-) > What follows is the text of the speech he gave upon being named Teacher of the Year. We don't know if the words were said exactly as written, or how it was delivered, which often is more important than the text itself.

Yes, I know very well -- I thought about qualifying with that in my comment, thought it probably wasn't necessary, and as usual HN was swift in delivering justice/pedantry :D

Re: Why Schools Don’t Educate (1990)

#73

Post by PartiallyTyped »

giantg2 wrote: post #55
PartiallyTyped wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> And to push for individualistic behavior when you think that your society is disintegrating seems to just accelerate any problems that may exists. This can not be understated. Coming from a country that would be considered "Eastern European", there is an astounding amount of individualism pushed in schools, and yet, it seems that the most prosperous and "equal" countries take the opposite approach. What I cherish t…

"Those who work in group will always achieve and learn a lot more than those who do it alone, unless the latter are truly exceptional." Many people in the US who have done group projects at school will disagree - you typically end up with dead weight or overbearing partners (it tends to get better when you get out of the compulsory school years). With the right partners, I completely agree though. In my undergrad and…

I'd wager that it is the sense of individualism that causes the feeling of carrying dead weight as the dead weight does not feel any sense of responsibility towards the group.

Given what I have read about such individualistic behaviour, I am inclined to believe that public transportation as found in Denmark wouldn't function in the US simply because it requires a form of trust between citizen and state. You just enter the bus / metro / train, you generally don't have to show ticket or anything. You are "caught" however if an inspector happens to be on board and goes for a check. I have had such checks only on the M2 line in Copenhagen (the one from the airport). People just buy the ticket from their phone and understand their responsibilities.

Re: Why Schools Don’t Educate (1990)

#74

Post by HereIGoAgain »

The problem is that schools, especially in the west, have totally lost the plot! We need to get back to its original and sole purpose. Teaching young people the basic skills needed to work in society. As well as the skills needed to move onto secondary education and vocational training. The fact that so much time and effort is spent on things other than core subjects, even while we graduate children who fail at one or more of said subjects, is inexcusable. It also makes efforts to push things like political/social activism and issues onto children, all the more infuriating! (not to mention the real harm and derangement doing so causes to children and young people's mental health)

Re: Why Schools Don’t Educate (1990)

#75

Post by TaupeRanger »

theptip wrote: post #58
hintymad wrote: post #38

> "just let the kids learn by themselves" This has been the central theme of progressive education movement in the US. IIRC, Jo Boaler has been advocating that kids could discover most of the maths by exploring and learning by themselves. I fundamentally disagree with this belief, though. It took thousands of years for our greatest minds to simplify our maths to its current incarnation. Discovering "everything" by my…

This seems like a bit of a strawman. I don’t know Jo Boaler but I have never encountered the idea that students could rediscover everything from scratch. It’s clearly a dumb idea. A much more common position is that self-paced exploration — but using the latest textbooks and also a variety of teaching styles — could interest students much more than “no child left behind” style common curricula which constrain both th…

Good luck in a classroom of 30 kids of wildly varying abilities and interests doing "self paced exploration". Maybe 1/100 kids would actually choose to learn any traditional school subject. Structured learning is required for the other 99/100 to learn important and valuable parts of human knowledge that they wouldn't pursue otherwise.

Re: Why Schools Don’t Educate (1990)

#76

Post by thebooktocome »

calculatte wrote: post #43
thebooktocome wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a laundry list of vices every generation has faulted the youth of the next generation for falling prey to.

When has the government in previous generations officially called concerned parents "domestic terrorists" for voicing their opinions at public meetings? You don't get to wave off everything at whim when there are real concerns out there. A large percentage of the population would disagree with you that "disintegration" is not happening.

Well, that particular incident was not mentioned in the parent comment.

But since you’ve brought it up, what else do you call an organized campaign to assault, threaten to assault, vandalize the private property of, threaten the family of, defame, and/or falsely level criminal charges against public officials?

https://www.washingtonpost.com/education/2022/01/13/school-b...

“At an Illinois school board meeting, a man was arrested after allegedly striking an education official. A school board member in Loudoun County, Va., fielded abusive, profane and threatening emails, Facebook messages and phone calls for months. In Florida, protesters camped out in front of a school board member’s house and burned an “FU” into her lawn with weed killer. They called her a Nazi and a pedophile. Someone falsely reported her as abusing her child to the Florida Department of Children and Families. “Be careful, your mommy hurts little kids!” an activist yelled at her daughter.” (links to incident reports in original source)

That’s not merely “voicing their opinions at public meetings.”

Re: Why Schools Don’t Educate (1990)

#78

Post by SketchySeaBeast »

HereIGoAgain wrote: post #74

The problem is that schools, especially in the west, have totally lost the plot! We need to get back to its original and sole purpose. Teaching young people the basic skills needed to work in society. As well as the skills needed to move onto secondary education and vocational training. The fact that so much time and effort is spent on things other than core subjects, even while we graduate children who fail at one o…

Could you expand on what you believe are "core" subjects?

Re: Why Schools Don’t Educate (1990)

#79

Post by TimTheTinker »

auslegung wrote: post #7
hourago wrote: post #4

> But our society is disintegrating, and in such a society, the only successful people are self-reliant, confident, and individualistic — because the community life that protects the dependent and the weak is dead. Too many people has apocalyptic views of the world. And to push for individualistic behavior when you think that your society is disintegrating seems to just accelerate any problems that may exists. 30 yea…

> you need some war-level trauma to stop children curiosity See inner city, ghetto living experiences

Agreed, there's nothing like fear and anxiety about basic needs and relationships to remove a sense of curiosity; and nothing like security to help people regain it.

Re: Why Schools Don’t Educate (1990)

#80

Post by mikotodomo »

theptip wrote: post #58
hintymad wrote: post #38

> "just let the kids learn by themselves" This has been the central theme of progressive education movement in the US. IIRC, Jo Boaler has been advocating that kids could discover most of the maths by exploring and learning by themselves. I fundamentally disagree with this belief, though. It took thousands of years for our greatest minds to simplify our maths to its current incarnation. Discovering "everything" by my…

This seems like a bit of a strawman. I don’t know Jo Boaler but I have never encountered the idea that students could rediscover everything from scratch. It’s clearly a dumb idea. A much more common position is that self-paced exploration — but using the latest textbooks and also a variety of teaching styles — could interest students much more than “no child left behind” style common curricula which constrain both th…

Queue midwit meme.
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