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Investors sue Treasury Department for blacklisting crypto platform Tornado Cash

nytimes.com

321–330 of 544 posts

Re: Investors sue Treasury Department for blacklisting crypto platform Tornado Cash

#321
post #3

Banning a service because it "might be used for illegal purposes" is insufficient. This is a problem with law enforcement in general: they are lazy and seek to have automated solutions to so much of what used to be called police work. This applies to warrant-less wiretaps, pulling information on people from 3rd party data brokers to side-step warrant and FOIA requirements, and more. I would rather money-launderers ge…

"Might be used for illegal purposes" is a significant understatement. The chief selling point of Tornado Cash is money laundering, which is in and of itself a crime in both the US and Netherlands. Normally, there'd be an aspect of plausible deniability: torrent index operators can, for example, rightfully claim that they're facilitating legal filesharing, or that they're entirely agnostic to the content being shared…

"The chief selling point of Tornado Cash is money laundering, which is in and of itself a crime in both the US and Netherlands."

You have a fundamental misunderstanding of US law with regard to money laundering. Obfuscating the source of funds, by itself, is not money laundering. Money laundering requires a "predicate offense" - the money that is being laundered must be proven to have had an illicit source. Further, the entity accused of doing the "laundering" also must know that the source of funds is illicit before doing it. Intent to promote the carrying on of "specified unlawful activity" must also be proven in order for a money laundering conviction to occur. You can read the entire statute here [1].

Therefore, the "chief selling point" cannot be money laundering, at least under US law, because the contracts were deployed with no prior knowledge of how or by whom they would be used. One cannot form intent without prior knowledge. The chief selling point was anonymity, not money laundering, which has a highly specific legal meaning.

[1] https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/1956

Re: Investors sue Treasury Department for blacklisting crypto platform Tornado Cash

#323
post #170

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why don't you use the traditional banking system, which doesn't result in publicly listed transactions? I struggle to find a legitimate use case for hiding transactions from your bank and thus tax authority (assuming a developed country).

Have you ever tried to make a wire transfer on a weekend? Having access to your money outside of banking hours is just one of many use cases I can think of off the top of my head.

I live in Europe and routinely do bank transfers in seconds on weekends.

Re: Investors sue Treasury Department for blacklisting crypto platform Tornado Cash

#324

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You can go to jail for driving a car without a registration or license. Since when is driving a car without registration or license a felony?

Here is an example: in Texas, unauthorized use of a vehicle, which would include driving a car that you can't prove is yours, can be punishable by two years in jail. [1] From what I understand getting caught driving without a license the first time is generally a misdemeanor, but for repeated offence in for example CA can land you in jail. Running a whole operation around driving without a license is what tornado cas…

You can actually operate and drive a car on private property without a license in Texas. In fact in Texas you can even drive a car drunk if it's on private property not open to the public, like a fenced off private parking lot.

Using your analogy, an instance of TC on private property would not be licensed.

Re: Investors sue Treasury Department for blacklisting crypto platform Tornado Cash

#325
post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's like saying knives are designed to facilitate murder. TC is made for privacy, which either is or should be a basic right. Without tools such as TC if I send you money, show you some POAPs[1] I own, or otherwise interact in any way with my crypto, it is fairly simple to deduce or make educated guesses of how much crypto I own, who I send it to or from, and more. This has serious implications not only for privac…

> That's like saying knives are designed to facilitate murder. There are plenty of knives that are designed to facilitate murder, and they are correspondingly regulated. We don't regulate kitchen knives in that way, because they don't represent the same intent. If your financial instrument leaks all of your transactions and makes you a target of criminal scrutiny, you should consider using a different instrument. Soc…

I, for one, am unconvinced that is a particularly valuable baby and its demise is worth getting rid of that bathwater.

Re: Investors sue Treasury Department for blacklisting crypto platform Tornado Cash

#326

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just going to point out that Tornado cash did invoke chainalysis oracles for all of their interface tools. The problem is that on ethereum it's not possible to censor a deployed contract. There is a possibility that miners could collude not to authenticate blocks with tornado cash transactions in them, but that gets into some interesting game theory in a globally distributed system. Not every miner is subject to US l…

The onus is for technology to comply with laws, not the other way around.

Laws bind people, and people should comply with laws. Technology is not a person.

People who make technology should not be expected to add measures to it to make sure that nobody is ever able to use it to commit a crime. This kind of thinking would have resulted in guns being banned until technology exists for the gun itself to detect who was firing it and what it was being fired at, to prevent any crimes from occurring.

Re: Investors sue Treasury Department for blacklisting crypto platform Tornado Cash

#327
post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's like saying knives are designed to facilitate murder. TC is made for privacy, which either is or should be a basic right. Without tools such as TC if I send you money, show you some POAPs[1] I own, or otherwise interact in any way with my crypto, it is fairly simple to deduce or make educated guesses of how much crypto I own, who I send it to or from, and more. This has serious implications not only for privac…

In the life without crypto. The only way to achieve this is like movies in the 80s, you hand over a suitcase of cash and get whatever you need. With the invention of paperless transaction, Government steps in and ensure every transaction record is there to show the party of the transaction. This happened, before the invention of the internet. If you wanna fight, then you will have to undo all the legal changes. Compa…

> Compare of the little loss of the privacy, and the possibility of funding the evil state like North Korea and its infamous neighbour. I would choose get rid of the evil country.

Damn, those goalposts moved like lightning. From "making it a bit harder for North Korea to get a bit of extra cash" to "abolishing the North Korean government" in a single sentence.

Re: Investors sue Treasury Department for blacklisting crypto platform Tornado Cash

#328
Hasn't precedent already been set for privacy protocols? I know the government tried to stop encryption by listing it as a munition, but they eventually lost that fight on first amendment grounds. It is hard to argue that code is not a kind of speech or expression and thus it gets some of the highest legal protection possible under U.S. law.

Tornado Cash is just a coin mixer implemented through smart contracts yes? The 'coins' themselves already enjoy some first amendment protection by being built on top of the protected encryption protocols. The smart contract itself is just another communication protocol defined in code. So it seems patently obvious that TC is allowed to exist under U.S. law.

The only remaining question is whether anyone can be allowed to use it. We actually have to get deep into first amendment jurisprudence to answer that question. Generally speaking all speech is permitted but, when it is paired with conduct, the conduct can be regulated by time, place, and manner. This at first appears a simple distinction for us. Users of TC or any e-coin standard are _conducting_ transactions. But this is thorny.

Commerce used to be conducted entirely physically with an exchange of cash. Then it was done with an exchange of electronic funds on a banks balance sheet; essentially a change on two different excel spreadsheets. But the btc-protocol and its derivatives don't function like this. They use a ledger. When we transact in e-coins we don't exchange anything. No digital coins fly from my computer to yours or vice versa. Rather all that happens is a message is sent to a public server which contains enough information to allow that server to determine that we both agreed to send that specific message. The server then updates the ledger and publishes this change to other servers hosting the ledger so there is agreement that we exchanged value.

It's not actually 100% clear that when communicating this way we have conducted anything. Sending encrypted messages like this has been determined to be first amendment protected activity as pure speech. Indeed we wouldn't have an internet today if it weren't. Having a message be encrypted inherently provides privacy and precludes restrictions on a message's content. Even when that message's content includes information to exchange value. Citizen's United also has some precedent over whether speech + conduct regarding money transactions are permitted speech when that speech is political in nature.

This leaves us only with the few recognized non-speech categories with which to regulate pure speech:

> lewd, obscene, or pornographic content; defamatory content; insulting or “fighting words”; expressive content that tends to inflict injury; speech that incites an immediate illegal conduct such as riot or violence; speech that poses an imminent threat to public safety or national security; false or misleading commercial advertising; and perjury.

There are a few categories here that may help us. Inciting immediate illegal conduct and imminent threat to public or national security. To qualify as incitement to illegal or a threat to public safety the speech has to pass the 'clear and present danger' test. This test has two parts:

* first, the speech must impose a threat that a substantive evil might follow

* second, the threat is a real, imminent threat.

This test is extremely hard to meet and just because the TC protocol is may be or even if it is likely to be used for money laundering it will likely never rise to the threshold of this test in a U.S. court. Cases where speech does meet this threat are specific threats or instructions. If TC included specific instructions on how to evade law enforcement then that may qualify.

This leaves only threats to national security as a legal basis. We have to begin by saying that many of the use of national security as a means to restrict the rights of Americans has an extremely checkered past. These were the arguments that bullied journalists under the red scare, interned the Japanese in WWII, attempted to stifle the pentagon papers after the Vietnam War, maintained the patriot act of 2001, lead to secret courts with secret evidence, torture, suspension of habeas corpus, etc. However, the standards for what constitutes a threat to national security have been much degraded in the past two decades. You could probably convince a judge or even SCOTUS that the use of TC by foreign hostile powers like North Korea and its potential to be used as a tool of terrorism from the likes of Iran and ISIS constitute a threat to national security. But arguing this not only degrades your moral character, it is also unlikely to be effective in the long term. We did reinstate habeas corpus, we un-interned the Japanese, and we did publish the Pentagon papers. Hopefully we will also get rid of the Patriot Act in the coming decades. And even if TC was determined to be a threat to national security, that determination would likely one day be reversed as an understanding of the technology and its necessity aged into the judicial system.

Re: Investors sue Treasury Department for blacklisting crypto platform Tornado Cash

#329

The "we are not a person or organization" argument sort of breaks down once you file a lawsuit.

The argument made by the plantiffs is that they were harmed by the Treasury Dept's action. One of the plantiffs deposited funds into Tornado for personal privacy, and now cannot legally access these funds.

https://storage.courtlistener.com/recap/gov.uscourts.txwd.11...

Re: Investors sue Treasury Department for blacklisting crypto platform Tornado Cash

#330

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure. Then it is irrelevant how much money was funding whom, only that a non-zero amount of value was not strictly traceable through typical financial surveillance systems, and so the US automatically deems this activity illegal regardless of how the funds were used. This is where the “privacy on the blockchain should be a basic right” argument comes in, and what the plaintiff appears to be arguing.

When you want to make legal arguments, you do it when you have good facts, and this is not that time. The facts about Tornado cash are terrible: pretty much everyone using it is either doing something provably illegal or trying to avoid being found, you have to go out of your way to use it (and pay an extra fee), and it's been part of a large number of bad news stories about crypto theft. A minimum of 10% of its thro…

25% of funds being illicit does not mean “pretty much everybody” is using it for illicit reasons. Your argument really falls apart here, but the sweeping generalizations don’t help.

Monero and TC are equal parts useful for non-criminals who are seeking privacy.

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