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Cloud centers bring high-tech flash but not many jobs

washingtonpost.com

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Re: Cloud centers bring high-tech flash but not many jobs

#21

Post by marshallp »

jessedhillon wrote: post #9
wavephorm wrote: post #5

I keep seeing new articles in this type of tone. Like they know what's wrong but are afraid to say what they want for fear it won't be published. What this article is describing is capitalism working effectively, maybe too effictively to be sustainable. Capitalsim is all about using technology to produce profits more efficiently. By building a data center in a small town Apple is efficiently using its techology to pr…

This. Every time I see articles like this -- pointing out how large full-time admin and operations teams are now replaced with smaller teams and easy-to-manage infrastructure -- I wonder if something similar will happen to software engineering. In fact, I am sure that something like this must eventually happen to engineering. The cost involved in designing and developing new services will be reduced to only that whic…

If you can't beat them, join them. Figure out what technologies are destroying jobs and be one of the job destroyers.

Re: Cloud centers bring high-tech flash but not many jobs

#22

Post by marshallp »

motters wrote: post #11

This is very much in agreement with my observations about technological unemployment in the US. http://sluggish.homelinux.net/wiki/Employment_and_Productivi... Jobs in software related industries have been stagnant or in decline in the US for the last decade, and traditional narratives about the ability of workers from older industries to upgrade their skills and become "knowledge workers" seem to no longer be true.

According to the bureau of labor statistics jobs in software industries are set to massively increase, so who's right

Re: Cloud centers bring high-tech flash but not many jobs

#23

Post by politician »

wavephorm wrote: post #5

I keep seeing new articles in this type of tone. Like they know what's wrong but are afraid to say what they want for fear it won't be published. What this article is describing is capitalism working effectively, maybe too effictively to be sustainable. Capitalsim is all about using technology to produce profits more efficiently. By building a data center in a small town Apple is efficiently using its techology to pr…

In such an economy, unemployment isn't the problem - resource allocation is. With decreasing numbers of jobs, the old "get a job to get money to get food" solution breaks down. An alternative solution could be for the government to provide a base level of necessities to the entire population. For example, it is within our current technology level (the US overproduces food, and various farms lay unused) to provide a 2000 calorie per day ration to our entire population. By replacing minimum wage laws and welfare checks, which simply drive inflation, with explicit grants for necessities (food, shelter, clothing) we can maintain higher levels of unemployment without perverting the capitalism-based incentive structures in other areas of our economy. That is, we want people to be motivated to better themselves by the prospect of those traditional capitalist rewards, and we don't want a solution which simply gives raw money away because a percentage, perhaps a significant percentage, will be misspent on luxuries rather than necessities and would likely reduce motivation to seek gainful employment.

TLDR: A two-tier economy based on enabling luxuries for those who work and providing a ration of necessities for all members of the society, scaled by our technology level, will enable us to sustain the higher levels of unemployment driven by technological advances.

Re: Cloud centers bring high-tech flash but not many jobs

#25

Post by balloot »

msbarnett wrote: post #18
balloot wrote: post #12

It is incredibly short sighted to say that the sum of the jobs created by a data center is the people reporting to work in the building. This data center likely created hundreds, if not thousands of jobs. It's just that most of them aren't in hicksville, NC. There are hardware engineers designing the facility, software engineers maintaining the software infrastructure, product managers scheming of ways to use Apple's…

> This data center likely created hundreds, if not thousands of jobs. It's just that most of them aren't in hicksville, NC. Well, yes. But it's worth taking note of the point that Governments subsidizing the creation of data centers in places like hicksville, NC with the idea that the jobs they create will become a huge boon to the local hicksville economy is fundamentally mistaken. Aside from a skeleton staff to mai…

Absolutely. But it appears that the fault falls clearly on the NC state government, which according to the article debated for less than a minute before awarding Apple $46 million in tax breaks.

The irony is that Apple basically used Republicans' blind allegiance to Job Creators to get huge tax breaks that will allow them to hire hundreds of people in the Socialist tax-happy hellhole of California, where most of the best knowledge workers live.

Re: Cloud centers bring high-tech flash but not many jobs

#26

Post by [deleted] »

balloot wrote: post #17
jessedhillon wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This. Every time I see articles like this -- pointing out how large full-time admin and operations teams are now replaced with smaller teams and easy-to-manage infrastructure -- I wonder if something similar will happen to software engineering. In fact, I am sure that something like this must eventually happen to engineering. The cost involved in designing and developing new services will be reduced to only that whic…

Yes, we all yearn for the days when cloud computing data centers were run by thousands and thousands of operations engineers. Sadly, those times are no longer here - mostly because they're a figment of your imagination. But don't let that stop you from assuming for no good reason that the software industry is about to die. People have been making that assumption for 10 years or so now, so you have plenty of good comp…

[deleted]

Re: Cloud centers bring high-tech flash but not many jobs

#27

Post by zerostar07 »

AlexMuir wrote: post #7
wavephorm wrote: post #5

I keep seeing new articles in this type of tone. Like they know what's wrong but are afraid to say what they want for fear it won't be published. What this article is describing is capitalism working effectively, maybe too effictively to be sustainable. Capitalsim is all about using technology to produce profits more efficiently. By building a data center in a small town Apple is efficiently using its techology to pr…

I absolutely agree. And it's all well and good talking about startups creating jobs, but really, what YC startups have created any meaningful number of jobs (aside from highly paid developers (Dropbox, Heroku) or sales staff (Airbnb)? I'm not taking away from their success in any way, I just think we need to recognise that there's a fundamental problem on the horizon. I suspect the solution lies in fewer people worki…

Do you remember that article from Mark Andreesen that "Software is eating everything"? It's a reality in the West that is often neglected and may lead to major changes in the (industrial-age) model of employment. There are other sectors with similar problems: Green energy, where people assume more jobs will be created although its obvious that it actually requires less human effort.

Re: Cloud centers bring high-tech flash but not many jobs

#28

Post by yummyfajitas »

msbarnett wrote: post #18
balloot wrote: post #12

It is incredibly short sighted to say that the sum of the jobs created by a data center is the people reporting to work in the building. This data center likely created hundreds, if not thousands of jobs. It's just that most of them aren't in hicksville, NC. There are hardware engineers designing the facility, software engineers maintaining the software infrastructure, product managers scheming of ways to use Apple's…

> This data center likely created hundreds, if not thousands of jobs. It's just that most of them aren't in hicksville, NC. Well, yes. But it's worth taking note of the point that Governments subsidizing the creation of data centers in places like hicksville, NC with the idea that the jobs they create will become a huge boon to the local hicksville economy is fundamentally mistaken. Aside from a skeleton staff to mai…

According to the article, the government didn't subsidize Apple.

Town Manager William “Todd” Herms said Apple’s presence boosts the town’s tax base and helps it lower overall taxes...

Apple benefits from reduced taxes, and the town gets 50% of something rather than 100% of nothing.

Re: Cloud centers bring high-tech flash but not many jobs

#29

Post by marshallp »

zerostar07 wrote: post #27
AlexMuir wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I absolutely agree. And it's all well and good talking about startups creating jobs, but really, what YC startups have created any meaningful number of jobs (aside from highly paid developers (Dropbox, Heroku) or sales staff (Airbnb)? I'm not taking away from their success in any way, I just think we need to recognise that there's a fundamental problem on the horizon. I suspect the solution lies in fewer people worki…

Do you remember that article from Mark Andreesen that "Software is eating everything"? It's a reality in the West that is often neglected and may lead to major changes in the (industrial-age) model of employment. There are other sectors with similar problems: Green energy, where people assume more jobs will be created although its obvious that it actually requires less human effort.

it's beyond the west, china for example has a worse problem, with many 20 million factory jobs being automated out over the past decade
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