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Investors sue Treasury Department for blacklisting crypto platform Tornado Cash

nytimes.com

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Re: Investors sue Treasury Department for blacklisting crypto platform Tornado Cash

#11

Post by wil421 »

mikece wrote: post #5
cguess wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It was used for tumbling, to the tune of $450m by the North Koreans. It's not a theoretical situation.

And yet, somehow, we knew exactly who was doing it. Why the urgency to shut it down?

Why should North Korea be allowed to steal and hack from other country’s people and organizations? It should be shut down immediately.

I feel like your trying to say NK and Tornado should be able to do illegal activities that harm people. Just because you don’t like the police or something.

Re: Investors sue Treasury Department for blacklisting crypto platform Tornado Cash

#12

Post by giaour »

mikece wrote: post #5
cguess wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It was used for tumbling, to the tune of $450m by the North Koreans. It's not a theoretical situation.

And yet, somehow, we knew exactly who was doing it. Why the urgency to shut it down?

I don’t follow your logic. Isn’t the whole point of mixers that everyone can see dirty money go in, then the forensic trail stops?

Re: Investors sue Treasury Department for blacklisting crypto platform Tornado Cash

#14

Post by sam0x17 »

cguess wrote: post #4
mikece wrote: post #3

Banning a service because it "might be used for illegal purposes" is insufficient. This is a problem with law enforcement in general: they are lazy and seek to have automated solutions to so much of what used to be called police work. This applies to warrant-less wiretaps, pulling information on people from 3rd party data brokers to side-step warrant and FOIA requirements, and more. I would rather money-launderers ge…

It was used for tumbling, to the tune of $450m by the North Koreans. It's not a theoretical situation.

If that's the cost of a freer internet that's fine with me. I don't care if it's $10t.

Re: Investors sue Treasury Department for blacklisting crypto platform Tornado Cash

#15

Post by mikece »

wil421 wrote: post #11
mikece wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And yet, somehow, we knew exactly who was doing it. Why the urgency to shut it down?

Why should North Korea be allowed to steal and hack from other country’s people and organizations? It should be shut down immediately. I feel like your trying to say NK and Tornado should be able to do illegal activities that harm people. Just because you don’t like the police or something.

The very fact (or assumed fact) that we know North Korea is using this undercuts the argument that we need to shut this down because it allows for anonymous money laundering. (By definition: the only way money laundering can be "dangerous" is if it cannot be detected or the players identified.)

Re: Investors sue Treasury Department for blacklisting crypto platform Tornado Cash

#16

Post by sam0x17 »

wil421 wrote: post #11
mikece wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And yet, somehow, we knew exactly who was doing it. Why the urgency to shut it down?

Why should North Korea be allowed to steal and hack from other country’s people and organizations? It should be shut down immediately. I feel like your trying to say NK and Tornado should be able to do illegal activities that harm people. Just because you don’t like the police or something.

Your argument is akin to saying people shouldn't be allowed to drive cars because a car was used one time in a heist.

Re: Investors sue Treasury Department for blacklisting crypto platform Tornado Cash

#17

Post by turdnagel »

This is definitely a pandora's box type issue. I believe it is different from the "code is speech" series of arguments around PGP because a deployed smart contract is not merely source code / compiled bytecode, but also a wallet containing funds. Of course, you still need the Ethereum "world computer" to make it run, and Tornado Cash is not very helpful without a significant amount of liquidity to sufficiently provide cover for people who want to obfuscate the source of their funds. These issues are likely to arise in court and I don't believe the conclusions will all be favorable to crypto supporters because I don't think the situation is as clear cut.

Re: Investors sue Treasury Department for blacklisting crypto platform Tornado Cash

#18

Post by Wowfunhappy »

jfim wrote: post #8
mikece wrote: post #3

Banning a service because it "might be used for illegal purposes" is insufficient. This is a problem with law enforcement in general: they are lazy and seek to have automated solutions to so much of what used to be called police work. This applies to warrant-less wiretaps, pulling information on people from 3rd party data brokers to side-step warrant and FOIA requirements, and more. I would rather money-launderers ge…

How much of it is used for legitimate reasons versus illicit ones? If the overwhelming majority of the transactions are illicit, it makes sense to ban it.

I agree with you, but I'd like to point out that the same logic could be applied to e.g. game console emulators.

...and as much as I hate to say it, I do think the logic might be correct in both situations. (I say this as a heavy user of console emulators—albeit also as someone who does go through the trouble to legally dump his own games.)

Re: Investors sue Treasury Department for blacklisting crypto platform Tornado Cash

#19

Post by yunohn »

ballenf wrote: post #6
cguess wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It was used for tumbling, to the tune of $450m by the North Koreans. It's not a theoretical situation.

And what's the value of drugs trafficked over public highways? Or illegal activity coordinated over SMS? Using volume of illegal activity cannot be the primary factor in categorizing a platform.

You’re right, a crypto mixer primarily used to launder money or evade taxes is *exactly the same* as highways and SMS.

Re: Investors sue Treasury Department for blacklisting crypto platform Tornado Cash

#20

Post by yunohn »

mikece wrote: post #15
wil421 wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why should North Korea be allowed to steal and hack from other country’s people and organizations? It should be shut down immediately. I feel like your trying to say NK and Tornado should be able to do illegal activities that harm people. Just because you don’t like the police or something.

The very fact (or assumed fact) that we know North Korea is using this undercuts the argument that we need to shut this down because it allows for anonymous money laundering. (By definition: the only way money laundering can be "dangerous" is if it cannot be detected or the players identified.)

No, in this, the authorities had the time/money to track down the hackers. The vast majority of tornado transactions are mostly illegal, but nobody cares enough to spend their efforts on them.
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