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Cognitive ability is related to supporting freedom of speech (2020)

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Re: Cognitive ability is related to supporting freedom of speech (2020)

#301

Post by trs8080 »

throwawayacc2 wrote: post #165
cortesoft wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have not heard any group calling for free speech to be blocked. Who is calling for people to be arrested for what they say? Or to be blocked from being able to say it out loud? I think what you mean is that people are calling for internet platforms to kick out certain groups. This is in no way a call against freedom of speech. I am not sure why people suddenly believe that being for 'free speech' means that other p…

> Or to be blocked from being able to say it out loud Proponents of hate speech laws and their silent enablers would be one answer. Certainly not the only one. > I think what you mean is that people are calling for internet platforms to kick out certain groups. This is in no way a call against freedom of speech. You keep telling yourself self that. Especially when social values will change again as they always do and…

It's troubling that you're unable to see the difference between restricting hate speech and protecting marginalized people so they can participate equitably in society.

Re: Cognitive ability is related to supporting freedom of speech (2020)

#302

Post by WalterBright »

benreesman wrote: post #279

The methodological flaw here is amusingly it’s own fascinating study: using some verbal sophistication proxy as a cognitive ability proxy to correlate political attitudes is arguably the key feature of modern hyper-polarized, Internet-speed news cycle politics. It’s difficult to watch a screen without hearing some version of “most people are stupid”. This is deeply wrong: most people are very smart , but this is diff…

> most people are very smart

Only half are above median intelligence.

There's a difference between being smart and being well-educated. Wisdom is the combination of intelligence with knowledge.

> coastal lefties are always befuddled

Being well-educated in STEM is not indicative of being well-educated in history and/or economics, which most Americans seem very poorly educated in.

Re: Cognitive ability is related to supporting freedom of speech (2020)

#303

Post by TigeriusKirk »

idlewords wrote: post #67

It's worth digging into the methodology here: the study participants were found through Mechanical Turk, and the proxy for cognitive ability is a vocabulary quiz. You can just as well use this study to show that the kind of highly educated people whose circumstances are dire enough they have to work for pennies an hour have been socialized into giving correct answers about questions pertaining to freedom of speech.

They also analyzed responses from 21 waves of the General Social Survey, which showed similar results.

Re: Cognitive ability is related to supporting freedom of speech (2020)

#304

Post by WalterBright »

pstuart wrote: post #299
benreesman wrote: post #279

The methodological flaw here is amusingly it’s own fascinating study: using some verbal sophistication proxy as a cognitive ability proxy to correlate political attitudes is arguably the key feature of modern hyper-polarized, Internet-speed news cycle politics. It’s difficult to watch a screen without hearing some version of “most people are stupid”. This is deeply wrong: most people are very smart , but this is diff…

I'm not sure about the policies bit. Sure, on the social front God, Guns, and Gays are powerful motivators to get those people to vote. But economic policies from the same side seem to be mainly about lowering the tax burden of the rich. What am I missing?

Not sure what your point is, but wealthy people are the source of investment capital. Less capital investment means a less prosperous economy, which negatively impacts about everybody.

Re: Cognitive ability is related to supporting freedom of speech (2020)

#305

Post by bandyaboot »

Levitz wrote: post #281
bandyaboot wrote: post #229

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Could someone explain to me why the mass downvoting of the above comment is not hypocritical? I believe it is, but would be interested in hearing opposing thoughts.

The paradox of tolerance explains how in an open society, when one ideology dismisses rational thought and discussion and opts to, instead, silence opposition, society must be intolerant of that ideology in order to be tolerant itself, because if it allows intolerance then it will become less tolerant itself. That is the paradox. In order to be as tolerant as possible you must not be as tolerant as possible. This for…

When I hear people saying that to advance the overall virtue of tolerance, one must not tolerate intolerance, they aren’t misusing some formal philosophical paradox. They’re just using their own sense. Most probably aren’t even aware of what you’re referencing.

It seems to me that those people just prioritize a different virtue than what that “correct” formulation would have you prioritize.

Re: Cognitive ability is related to supporting freedom of speech (2020)

#306

Post by WalterBright »

Dig1t wrote: post #55

I grew up in the US being told that freedom of speech was a virtue, something that our country did very well and I always thought that it was a shared value. It's very surprising to me to see that change in such a short span, or possibly it was not as popular or widespread as I thought it was growing up and I just never noticed. Is it the internet that has caused this uptick in the number of people who think free spe…

Free speech is the lynch pin of all our other rights. Without it, the other rights all disappear.

For example, if one is not allowed to publish information about other rights being violated, it is impossible to organize an effort to protect those other rights.

Be very, very careful about abrogating the right to free speech.

Re: Cognitive ability is related to supporting freedom of speech (2020)

#307

Post by isitmadeofglass »

benreesman wrote: post #279

The methodological flaw here is amusingly it’s own fascinating study: using some verbal sophistication proxy as a cognitive ability proxy to correlate political attitudes is arguably the key feature of modern hyper-polarized, Internet-speed news cycle politics. It’s difficult to watch a screen without hearing some version of “most people are stupid”. This is deeply wrong: most people are very smart , but this is diff…

> It’s difficult to watch a screen without hearing some version of “most people are stupid”. This is deeply wrong: most people are very smart, but this is difficult for the well-educated, because most people are inarticulate.

This is all just balderdash. Depending on how people define “stupid” or “very smart” it’s correct or incorrect. It doesn’t really convey anything meaningful.

The thing about our society that most seem to not appreciate even though it’s axiomatically true and fairly obvious for most educated to see is that half the population are dumber than the average person. (Yes, technically the median, but you can’t say median person because the median person and those dumber don’t know what median means).

Re: Cognitive ability is related to supporting freedom of speech (2020)

#308

Post by causality0 »

michaelmrose wrote: post #254
causality0 wrote: post #199

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can do a search for "hate speech" in the HN archive and find plenty of examples. Going down the first page of results, it's about half supporting hate speech as free speech and half against, although the supporting comments have much higher scores. You could make the argument those people think something should be illegal without thinking you should be arrested for doing it, but that's calling them a pack of igno…

Literally every covid thread has someone how thinks its not real. They post extensively on every thread that brings up their trigger topic unless actually banned. This isn't a good way to discern public sentiment among hacker news readers. Punishing people for "free speech" is a complex topic not a binary decision. Plenty of hateful speech that threatens or harasses could already be deemed a crime if its specific eno…

Punishing people for "free speech" is a complex topic not a binary decision. Plenty of hateful speech that threatens or harasses could already be deemed a crime if its specific enough.

Certainly, which is why I used the specific example of "saying racist things on the internet". It isn't a threat or harassment to tweet about how "those filthy stinking Norwegians keep sneaking into our country on reindeer-back and we need to deport them all before they molest our horses" but it would still be a crime in the UK as hate speech.

Re: Cognitive ability is related to supporting freedom of speech (2020)

#309

Post by pstuart »

cies wrote: post #198
MichaelCollins wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I have not heard any group calling for free speech to be blocked. Who is calling for people to be arrested for what they say? The way it works is: "Sure I support free speech, but saying X is not free speech and saying it should be against the law because its offensive and might incite violence or something." If you object, they trot out Popper quotes about tolerating intolerance.

> they trot out Popper quotes about tolerating intolerance. Yup, that's me. What's wrong with that according to you? If your expression is promoting violence, especially violence against a vulnerable group (children, minorities, I'd say even animals), I'm okay with drawing up laws against such things. Thereby reducing freedom of expression. Advertising for instance. If every building/land owner or municipality could…

I'm kind of with you, specifically on the intolerance of intolerance.

But actually making it illegal is worrisome -- because that goes both ways (cue "religious freedom").

The best compromise today seems to be deplatforming, which in a sense is nothing new as we've long had the saying "power of the press belongs to those that own it".

The rabid hate speech of the right has done serious damage to the fabric of this country, and it is couched in such a way that making it illegal would be dangerous AF.

It bothers me to no end that free speech absolutists that refuse to recognize that some speech should not be amplified.

Re: Cognitive ability is related to supporting freedom of speech (2020)

#310

Post by WalterBright »

cortesoft wrote: post #105
Dig1t wrote: post #55

I grew up in the US being told that freedom of speech was a virtue, something that our country did very well and I always thought that it was a shared value. It's very surprising to me to see that change in such a short span, or possibly it was not as popular or widespread as I thought it was growing up and I just never noticed. Is it the internet that has caused this uptick in the number of people who think free spe…

I have not heard any group calling for free speech to be blocked. Who is calling for people to be arrested for what they say? Or to be blocked from being able to say it out loud? I think what you mean is that people are calling for internet platforms to kick out certain groups. This is in no way a call against freedom of speech. I am not sure why people suddenly believe that being for 'free speech' means that other p…

The Biden administration has pressured social media to remove certain posts.

https://www.wsj.com/articles/how-the-feds-coordinate-with-fa...

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