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After a Legal Fight, Oberlin Says It Will Pay $36.59M to a Local Bakery

nytimes.com

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Re: After a Legal Fight, Oberlin Says It Will Pay $36.59M to a Local Bakery

#211

Post by theonething »

bruce511 wrote: post #199
ghufran_syed wrote: post #162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

define “strange” - perhaps by identifying something in my statement that is factually incorrect? Or do you agree with the statement and wish the world was different somehow?

"strange" might be the wrong word. I mean in the sense that it feels like you're suggesting that "offsetting expenses" makes it better. When it makes it worse. [1]. So in answering the question "is this taxable income" - the answer is "yes". If you wanted to qualify it more it would be more along the lines of "not just tax, there's likely a lot of other expenses incurred as well." [1] Yes, it's better in the pure sen…

You're putting a lot of words in their mouth that they didn't say. Their original statement was perfectly valid; the business probably has losses they can use to offset the tax liability. That's all they said. They didn't make any further judgements about whether that was overall better or worse.

Re: After a Legal Fight, Oberlin Says It Will Pay $36.59M to a Local Bakery

#212

Post by emmelaich »

JeremyNT wrote: post #201
pc86 wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It doesn't even qualify in this instance, but in what universe is thinking that people who commit crimes should be detained so they can be arrested an archaic thing? You don't need to have a Blue Lives bumper sticker on your car to think that people being punished for committing crimes is a good thing.

I've worked retail and in no universe would I ever try to physically detain anybody. This has been the explicit policy of the companies I worked for. Losing a little merchandise is no big deal, especially if you can identify the person to police in a report later. Attempting to detain a person is dangerous all around. The risk of escalation and injury to the parties involved is high, and a simple shoplifting can turn…

It is a family business, the detainer was a member of the family.

Hard to compare with a min wage employee at Target or whatever.

Re: After a Legal Fight, Oberlin Says It Will Pay $36.59M to a Local Bakery

#213

Post by remarkEon »

rayiner wrote: post #178
remarkEon wrote: post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I (mostly) find myself agreeing with you on this website, and I see what point you're making by referencing healthcare, but that's not at all relevant. To steelman your argument, you're concerned about proliferation of, essentially, tomfoolery and pilferage amongst the young. Because of changing or weakening of cultural norms, or because of some other reason (maybe poverty or class divides or some such explanation).…

I think that stealing and cheating—by people who don’t face acute need—is a profound moral defect. In the same way that people saying “boys will be boys” when applied to quite horrible conduct says something bad about our society, normalizing theft as youthful hijinks says something bad. (Not directed at you, I’m aware most Americans anymore just don’t think it’s that big of a deal.) You have a point about abundance…

I understand and sort of agree but this could spiral into some deontological debate. I don’t see “boys will be boys” as relevant because, well, boys will in fact be boys and do stupid stuff. You’re imo rightly pointing out that there’s a certain strain of moralism today that, mostly as a political project, excuses certain behavior - like theft. I don’t think the people you’re concerned about are actually saying “boys will be boys”, and far from it. They actually want these kinds of thefts to happen, and that’s not the same as “Johnny 16 year old crashed the car racing his friend”.

My point about scarcity and material abundance isn’t that harsher penalties weren’t morally or philosophically justified. Just that it was much easier to do so when things were scarce.

Re: After a Legal Fight, Oberlin Says It Will Pay $36.59M to a Local Bakery

#214

Post by bruce511 »

theonething wrote: post #211
bruce511 wrote: post #199

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"strange" might be the wrong word. I mean in the sense that it feels like you're suggesting that "offsetting expenses" makes it better. When it makes it worse. [1]. So in answering the question "is this taxable income" - the answer is "yes". If you wanted to qualify it more it would be more along the lines of "not just tax, there's likely a lot of other expenses incurred as well." [1] Yes, it's better in the pure sen…

You're putting a lot of words in their mouth that they didn't say. Their original statement was perfectly valid; the business probably has losses they can use to offset the tax liability. That's all they said. They didn't make any further judgements about whether that was overall better or worse.

You are correct, I was inferring a lot. Perhaps too much - I apologise for that.

I guess the reply seemed strange to me because it started the thought, and then kinda didn't complete it.

The post could have just said "yes", or could have mentioned the additional costs and explained that taxes were not the only likely overhead. But (it read to me) like the thought was incomplete, or was somehow implying the expenses were a good thing.

Clearly though I misunderstood it - my bad.

Re: After a Legal Fight, Oberlin Says It Will Pay $36.59M to a Local Bakery

#215

Post by Beltalowda »

duxup wrote: post #2

“ The message to other colleges is to have the intestinal fortitude to be the adult in the room” That seems to be the most apt conclusion. Being an educational institution should involve more than just indulging the students. It should also challenge them and be measured in their responses to events, even if that means being unpopular with students.

> even if that means being unpopular with students.

The problem is that, at the end of the day, the students are your customers for institutions like this.

Re: After a Legal Fight, Oberlin Says It Will Pay $36.59M to a Local Bakery

#216

Post by JeremyNT »

emmelaich wrote: post #212
JeremyNT wrote: post #201

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've worked retail and in no universe would I ever try to physically detain anybody. This has been the explicit policy of the companies I worked for. Losing a little merchandise is no big deal, especially if you can identify the person to police in a report later. Attempting to detain a person is dangerous all around. The risk of escalation and injury to the parties involved is high, and a simple shoplifting can turn…

It is a family business, the detainer was a member of the family. Hard to compare with a min wage employee at Target or whatever.

Why? Is the business so hard up that they need to risk physical violence for $25 worth of merchandise should the police not track them down?

I understand why the shopkeeper would make this decision in the heat of the moment, but it's always a mistake to try and physically confront somebody committing a petty crime directly. They were even outnumbered!

Ultimately the confrontation actually was a huge boon to the shopkeeper, due to Oberlin's bungling of the situation, but that's not in any way repeatable. It's simply not worth the risk of being forced to commit violence and/or have violence inflicted upon your person for a few bucks.

Re: After a Legal Fight, Oberlin Says It Will Pay $36.59M to a Local Bakery

#217

Post by dang »

rayiner wrote: post #72
markdog12 wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Some more interesting context from your link: When the author anonymously interviewed students, he gathered the following responses: • “I totally have [taken things from a store downtown without paying for it]. I think I’ve stolen from Gibson’s twice. I took a packet of those noodles that come in boxes… It wasn’t expensive and I felt like it. I just preferred not paying for it, but I could have.” • A female student a…

They should do like Saudi Arabia and cut off their hands.

Whoa, please don't post like this to HN. That's the sort of thing we ban people for. I know you know this!

I don't want to ban you and have no intention to, but you create a big problem for us if we ban people for comments like this and then an account like yours does the same thing. Users expect fairness. How am I supposed to answer them when they say things like "so it's ok if rayiner does it?"

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Re: After a Legal Fight, Oberlin Says It Will Pay $36.59M to a Local Bakery

#218

Post by Handytinge »

JeremyNT wrote: post #216
emmelaich wrote: post #212

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is a family business, the detainer was a member of the family. Hard to compare with a min wage employee at Target or whatever.

Why? Is the business so hard up that they need to risk physical violence for $25 worth of merchandise should the police not track them down? I understand why the shopkeeper would make this decision in the heat of the moment, but it's always a mistake to try and physically confront somebody committing a petty crime directly. They were even outnumbered! Ultimately the confrontation actually was a huge boon to the shopk…

Except that's not what happened. The shop owner was attacked in store by the singular robber, and the robbers friends were waiting outside.

The fictional account you've constructed you're probably right about, but it has little to do with reality.

> Gibson noticed that the student was concealing two other bottles of wine inside his jacket.[10][6] According to a police report, Gibson told the student he was contacting the police, and when Gibson pulled out his phone to take a photo of the student, the student slapped it away, striking Gibson's face.[11] The student ran out of the store. Gibson followed and then grabbed and held onto the shoplifter outside the store after the shoplifter had also assaulted the store owner, David Gibson.[6] Two other students, Cecelia Whettstone and Endia Lawrence, friends of the shoplifter, joined the scuffle.[6] When the police arrived, they witnessed Gibson lying on the ground with the three students punching and kicking him.

Re: After a Legal Fight, Oberlin Says It Will Pay $36.59M to a Local Bakery

#219

Post by Handytinge »

sofixa wrote: post #171
spaetzleesser wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Statements like “archaic chase-and-detain policy regarding suspected shoplifters was the catalyst for the protests” is why a lot of people think the left has lost their collective minds. They are making perpetrators into victims and blame the real victims for any bad consequences.

I think (I'm pretty far away from all of this so this is just my impression) the point of these people, often poorly made and sometimes exaggerated, is that petty crimes (especially in a world where everyone is insured anyways so the actual damage is minimal) are not worth ruining human lives over. The American justice system is atrocious, with for profit prisons and extremely high recidivism rates, not to mention ra…

> Is it worth it to throw away a human life in that black whole over a bottle of wine?

Except that's not what happened. The shopkeeper was assaulted and another shopkeeper (a member of their family) also assaulted before they pursued the assailant.

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