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Joel Spolsky On Tech Hiring: Beware the Exploding Offer

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Re: Joel Spolsky On Tech Hiring: Beware the Exploding Offer

#101

Post by nupark2 »

cletus wrote: post #96
nupark2 wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

With a company, all that matters from an ethical and legal point of view is what's written down on paper and signed by both parties. Companies are comprised of people. If you break your word and cost the company money, you're costing those people (and the investors) money. As a business owner, I find it very frustrating how some people's morals seem to not apply to their dealings with corporations. I wonder if it's a…

By reneging on an offer you may cost the company time but you almost certainly won't cost them money. More than likely they'll go to the next candidate on the list that they've already interviewed. If there are no other candidates... sorry but that's not the employee's problem. Personally I'd be more concerned with people who start, work a few months and then up and leave because something better came along. By that…

> By reneging on an offer you may cost the company time but you almost certainly won't cost them money.

Where do you think the time comes from?

> But before they even start? The investment (and thus the commitment) is minimal.

That's not your decision to make with their money.

> This is not a meeting of equals. When one party is dealing with survival and the other with inconvenience, sorry but you're just going to have to suck it up that some people will accept offers and then renege on them later.

I don't think ethical conduct differs based on the degree of harm: Stealing $20 from Bill Gates would still be stealing.

Re: Joel Spolsky On Tech Hiring: Beware the Exploding Offer

#102

Post by rdtsc »

nupark2 wrote: post #99
rdtsc wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You're mixing things up. I actually agree with him. The point of "at will" employment is that usually firing happens if the employee has done something terribly wrong. Usually they are "let go" for "no reason." It avoids a potential legal mess. Well a reason is given but it is a safe reason "we are restructuring" and such. The real reason could be anything, heck it could be race or gender, as long as nobody puts th…

The point is that morality doesn't and shouldn't play into it. Usually companies don't follow moral principle but rather legal principle. Smart individual should do the same thing. Otherwise they are and will be abused and taken advantage of. I've made a long and rewarding career out of following moral principals, and my reputation has been invaluable in the ongoing growth of my career and (now) my own business. It's…

Ok so what is your suggestion for this young college graduates? I am guessing to not accept the offer?

Re: Joel Spolsky On Tech Hiring: Beware the Exploding Offer

#103

Post by nupark2 »

rdtsc wrote: post #102
nupark2 wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The point is that morality doesn't and shouldn't play into it. Usually companies don't follow moral principle but rather legal principle. Smart individual should do the same thing. Otherwise they are and will be abused and taken advantage of. I've made a long and rewarding career out of following moral principals, and my reputation has been invaluable in the ongoing growth of my career and (now) my own business. It's…

Ok so what is your suggestion for this young college graduates? I am guessing to not accept the offer?

Yes -- ask for more time. If they say no, then just don't accept the offer.

Honestly, nobody you want to work for is going to say "no" if you ask for a little more time, unless business constraints dictate that they truly can't afford to wait on the hiring decision -- which is, in itself either:

- A sign of either poor planning on their part.

or

- A demonstration of their low assessment of your value to their organization.

Re: Joel Spolsky On Tech Hiring: Beware the Exploding Offer

#104

Post by rdtsc »

nupark2 wrote: post #103
rdtsc wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ok so what is your suggestion for this young college graduates? I am guessing to not accept the offer?

Yes -- ask for more time. If they say no, then just don't accept the offer. Honestly, nobody you want to work for is going to say "no" if you ask for a little more time, unless business constraints dictate that they truly can't afford to wait on the hiring decision -- which is, in itself either: - A sign of either poor planning on their part. or - A demonstration of their low assessment of your value to their organiz…

I agree. Basically if it they are establishing an adversarial environment right off the start, maybe they are not a good company to work at to begin with. I think the school recruiting office could at inform the students about such strategies and tell them to beware.

Re: Joel Spolsky On Tech Hiring: Beware the Exploding Offer

#105

Post by ldar15 »

nupark2 wrote: post #92
arctangent wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I view this as simple ethics. You keep your word, period. I keep my word when I'm dealing with people. With people my word is bond. With a company, all that matters from an ethical and legal point of view is what's written down on paper and signed by both parties. If you sign a contract promising to begin work on a certain date and there's no penalty for changing your mind, then it's OK to change your mind. If they…

With a company, all that matters from an ethical and legal point of view is what's written down on paper and signed by both parties. Companies are comprised of people. If you break your word and cost the company money, you're costing those people (and the investors) money. As a business owner, I find it very frustrating how some people's morals seem to not apply to their dealings with corporations. I wonder if it's a…

Its true that if I put a gun to your child's head and tell you that I'm going to kill her unless you agree to take my job, and you agree, then you gave me your word. Its also true that you genuinely had the choice of saying yes or no. It just that if you had said "no" there would be pretty negative consequences. Would you argue that in this case, had you said "yes", that you should be required to keep your word? Or that you are morally obligated to keep your word? Some fierce word-keepers argue "yes you should". In which case you may stop reading, but probably stop posting too.

Otherwise, let us agree that "I gave my word" is not a moral absolute and we are now debating about degree.

We get where you stand on this. Many disagree.

Re: Joel Spolsky On Tech Hiring: Beware the Exploding Offer

#106

Post by jrockway »

azth wrote: post #89
jrockway wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Amazon did not give me a deadline on their offer. Theoretically, I could call them up today and be working in Seattle on Monday.

Interesting. Are you a fresh college grad?

No, so perhaps my experience is not relevant to the discussion. But companies are as anxious to hire "real people" as they are interns.

Re: Joel Spolsky On Tech Hiring: Beware the Exploding Offer

#107

Post by jrockway »

chubot wrote: post #35
Swizec wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know about ethics, wouldn't everyone understand if a person's situation changes in 6 months? That's a lot of time. Say I accept an offer in December, then get a better one in May. Wouldn't the December offer be understanding of the fact that hey, I'm gonna have to change my mind here.

Uh yeah, ethics. You can treat life like a big exercise in game theory. But you're going to have this thing called a "reputation". Maybe you can get away with it on your campus interviews, but if you consistently lie to get the best of a situation, it will catch up to you. (Lying in this case being accepting an offer without the intention of taking it. As opposed to saying you need time to consider other offers.) Joe…

I doubt this. By what mechanism will recruiters at company A use to communicate your failure to accept their offer to company B?

Accepting every offer and then reneging on all but one marks you as a second-rate employee. It's the behavior of the desperate.

No it's not. I can see why you might think it's shady, but it's not desperate. It's the behavior of someone afraid to push back, which probably happens more to college students than to people that have been working for a few years.

If you don't play the game, you lose.

Re: Joel Spolsky On Tech Hiring: Beware the Exploding Offer

#108

Post by azth »

jrockway wrote: post #106
azth wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Interesting. Are you a fresh college grad?

No, so perhaps my experience is not relevant to the discussion. But companies are as anxious to hire "real people" as they are interns.

True, but I was just wondering if they'd play the same trick on 'real people' :) Since it's not uncommon for fresh grads to be interviewing with several companies at the same time.

Re: Joel Spolsky On Tech Hiring: Beware the Exploding Offer

#109

Post by kd1221 »

I graduated right before the peak of the 2000 dotcom bust, and I got a two exploding offers that I didn't accept. The offer I ended up taking was the opposite of an exploding offer: the nebulous offer.

I was told I was being tendered an offer. Great! I was ecstatic because the company was a "leader" in the industry I wanted to work in. Ten days and several phone calls later, my offer was still being "worked on." At that point I got impatient and continued interviewing. I had two more offers come in during the formation of the nebulous offer: one of the exploding type and one without conditions. I informed my dream company of the exploding offer and magically the paperwork appeared for their offer the next day. I took it.

6 months later I got laid off along with 20% of the staff.

Lesson learned: a company that treats you poorly when you're in recruitment will treat you poorly when you're working for them.

Re: Joel Spolsky On Tech Hiring: Beware the Exploding Offer

#110

Post by marshray »

cperciva wrote: post #14
alex_c wrote: post #8

There's no mention of the flip side of this. I only have one position, and I interview multiple candidates, several of which are good. If I make you an offer, I can't afford to sit around waiting for weeks for you to make up your mind: if you turn it down, chances are my other candidates are already gone, and now I have to start the whole process again from scratch. Edit: fair enough, I missed that Joel was talking a…

Most such companies have far more than one position they're trying to fill. Small startups generally aren't recruiting at college career fairs.

It depends on the size of the town. In smaller "university towns", often there are a few companies that are hiring specialized tech locally. They get the students who want to stay in town for whatever reason.

I've been at a smaller company where we would typically get 0 or 1 new developers out of the local university each year. But if one of them verbally accepted and then didn't work out for whatever reason, it might be a disappointment, but it wasn't a crisis.

Now that I think about it, it's probably that we would not realistically expect a new hire right out of school to be able to help with a short term deadline. Our products were complex and low-level, and the sense was that a new junior developer would probably not represent a net gain for about 6 months.

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