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After a Legal Fight, Oberlin Says It Will Pay $36.59M to a Local Bakery

nytimes.com

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Re: After a Legal Fight, Oberlin Says It Will Pay $36.59M to a Local Bakery

#201

Post by JeremyNT »

pc86 wrote: post #106
crackercrews wrote: post #45

> The college said then that the bakery’s “archaic chase-and-detain policy regarding suspected shoplifters was the catalyst for the protests.” IIRC, the employee tried to take a photo of the shoplifter with his phone. The shoplifter took/smashed the phone or something. This makes it much more reasonable for the employee to try to stop the shoplifter from getting away. It wasn't like he tried to cuff the guy off the b…

It doesn't even qualify in this instance, but in what universe is thinking that people who commit crimes should be detained so they can be arrested an archaic thing? You don't need to have a Blue Lives bumper sticker on your car to think that people being punished for committing crimes is a good thing.

I've worked retail and in no universe would I ever try to physically detain anybody. This has been the explicit policy of the companies I worked for.

Losing a little merchandise is no big deal, especially if you can identify the person to police in a report later.

Attempting to detain a person is dangerous all around. The risk of escalation and injury to the parties involved is high, and a simple shoplifting can turn into something much worse (as happened here). You never know what drugs a shoplifter might be on, or what weapons they might have.

I'm sympathetic to the person being robbed, and this is no defense of the actions of the robber in any way, but it's always the smarter play to let the cops deal with it.

Re: After a Legal Fight, Oberlin Says It Will Pay $36.59M to a Local Bakery

#202

Post by tptacek »

jononomo wrote: post #198
tptacek wrote: post #190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree with your first statement. I disagree with your second. I agree with your third statement. None of this changes anything I said.

You are wrong to disagree with my second statement.

I doubt it, but it's fine if we disagree.

Re: After a Legal Fight, Oberlin Says It Will Pay $36.59M to a Local Bakery

#203

Post by pc86 »

JeremyNT wrote: post #201
pc86 wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It doesn't even qualify in this instance, but in what universe is thinking that people who commit crimes should be detained so they can be arrested an archaic thing? You don't need to have a Blue Lives bumper sticker on your car to think that people being punished for committing crimes is a good thing.

I've worked retail and in no universe would I ever try to physically detain anybody. This has been the explicit policy of the companies I worked for. Losing a little merchandise is no big deal, especially if you can identify the person to police in a report later. Attempting to detain a person is dangerous all around. The risk of escalation and injury to the parties involved is high, and a simple shoplifting can turn…

One, it wasn't just shoplifting, they were also assaulted by the student. Two, there's a big difference between saying "it's risky, I wouldn't do, company policy is not to," etc. and "detaining criminals is archaic and if you do it and the criminal happens to be black, that makes you a racist."

I probably wouldn't do anything either. But I also wouldn't begrudge anyone who who has spent years building that business who decides they're not going to let people just walk in and steal stuff.

Re: After a Legal Fight, Oberlin Says It Will Pay $36.59M to a Local Bakery

#204

Post by kevin_thibedeau »

subsistence234 wrote: post #184
sofixa wrote: post #171

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think (I'm pretty far away from all of this so this is just my impression) the point of these people, often poorly made and sometimes exaggerated, is that petty crimes (especially in a world where everyone is insured anyways so the actual damage is minimal) are not worth ruining human lives over. The American justice system is atrocious, with for profit prisons and extremely high recidivism rates, not to mention ra…

See the wikipedia article to learn what actually happened, the Oberlin statement and the NYT article are misleading: An employee took a photo of the shoplifter in the act of stealing, the shoplifter got angry and assaulted the employee for this. That's when then the employee tried apprehending the shoplifter. Assault, not petty theft. Also, doesn't violence turn theft into robbery?

Theft is a crime. It warrants the same response as an assault.

Re: After a Legal Fight, Oberlin Says It Will Pay $36.59M to a Local Bakery

#205

Post by languageserver »

Lazare wrote: post #79
crackercrews wrote: post #45

> The college said then that the bakery’s “archaic chase-and-detain policy regarding suspected shoplifters was the catalyst for the protests.” IIRC, the employee tried to take a photo of the shoplifter with his phone. The shoplifter took/smashed the phone or something. This makes it much more reasonable for the employee to try to stop the shoplifter from getting away. It wasn't like he tried to cuff the guy off the b…

Yep. From wikipedia: > On Wednesday, November 9, 2016, an underage African-American Oberlin College student and Student Assistant Treasurer,[9] Jonathan Aladin (aka Elijah Aladin), attempted to purchase a bottle of wine using a fake identification card.[8] The store clerk, Allyn D. Gibson, a son and grandson of the owners,[6] rejected the fake ID. Gibson noticed that the student was concealing two other bottles of wi…

> Their plea deals carried no jail time in exchange for restitution, the public statement, and a promise of future good behavior.

people say the US has a strict justice system, but in some cases it seems completely loony.

Re: After a Legal Fight, Oberlin Says It Will Pay $36.59M to a Local Bakery

#206

Post by kipchak »

lajamerr wrote: post #31
dmitrygr wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is what punitive damages are - they are not required to be connected to the size of the damage, they are meant to punish the defendant for royally (in the judge's view) fucking up, and send a message to other similar defendants to not do such things And $5M in compensatory damages seems about right for 2 years of a successful small bakery

Honestly I'm not very keen on pinning blame/monetary responsibility on single individuals/companies to 'prevent/deter' unknown future crimes. We shouldn't be signaling with big punishments bigger than the crimes call for. We should carefully consider the crime based on the individual and how much punishment is appropriate for that individual to compensate the victim/deter that single individual/company from continuin…

The four traditional functions of criminal punishment are Retribution (an eye for an eye, or the punishment meeting the crime) Deterrence (for fear of punishment, people do not commit crimes), Rehabilitation (correcting the behavior), and Incapacitation (someone in jail cannot commit crimes).

One downside to retribution only is that the odds of being caught for a crime are less than 100%, so someone stands to gain more than they stand to lose by breaking the crime. For example if the punishment for tax perjury was commensurate with my ill gotten gains, I wouldn't have any reason outside of a personal moral framework not to lie. But if instead I can go to prison for 3 years, a good chance to save a fair chunk of money is much less attractive.

Re: After a Legal Fight, Oberlin Says It Will Pay $36.59M to a Local Bakery

#207

Post by abduhl »

Ekaros wrote: post #170
ck2 wrote: post #120

I'm still processing the $6.5 Million the lawyers made.

22% is bit much. But if I were in for 30 million payday I might be able to live with it.

They probably didn't have to live with it either way. If you win then Oberlin pays, if you lose then hopefully the lawyers were on contingency and you're out nothing. Hell, the lawyers might have even funded the appeal based on winning below.

Re: After a Legal Fight, Oberlin Says It Will Pay $36.59M to a Local Bakery

#208

Post by aqouta »

sofixa wrote: post #171
spaetzleesser wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Statements like “archaic chase-and-detain policy regarding suspected shoplifters was the catalyst for the protests” is why a lot of people think the left has lost their collective minds. They are making perpetrators into victims and blame the real victims for any bad consequences.

I think (I'm pretty far away from all of this so this is just my impression) the point of these people, often poorly made and sometimes exaggerated, is that petty crimes (especially in a world where everyone is insured anyways so the actual damage is minimal) are not worth ruining human lives over. The American justice system is atrocious, with for profit prisons and extremely high recidivism rates, not to mention ra…

That's not really how insurance works. Everything gets paid for by someone, it's not magic money. A systemic increase in insurance payouts causes a proportional systemic increase in insurance premiums which are ultimately passed onto the customer.

One person is more culpable in the life ruining than the person who contacts the police.

Re: After a Legal Fight, Oberlin Says It Will Pay $36.59M to a Local Bakery

#209

Post by stefan_ »

tptacek wrote: post #133
jerrya wrote: post #51

From the nytimes article, the judgment will be paid by Oberlin's insurance company, it will not come out of the endowment, they have not apologized, they are not accepting they were wrong, there have been no resignations. Meredith Raimondo, the Dean of Students at the time, who was passing out flyers and far more, nine months ago to accept a position as Vice President of Student Affairs at Oglethorpe University https…

There is no requirement that Oberlin learn anything here. The law pretty severely limits the extent to which civil damages can be used to teach lessons, as we just learned from the Alex Jones case: punitive damages are capped, constitutionally, at some low multiple of economic damages. It is an enormous defamation award, regardless of how you feel about where it leaves Oberlin.

Nobody was talking about the law. The law also doesn't say they need to release a statement, yet they did, and naturally they are judges by its contents.

Re: After a Legal Fight, Oberlin Says It Will Pay $36.59M to a Local Bakery

#210

Post by miles »

scarface74 wrote: post #187
mpweiher wrote: post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Then you will have to essentially leave the civilised world: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Citizen's_arrest#United_States

Georgia just outlawed that practice after the very yokels who tried to make a citizens arrest because someone committed a crime of “looking like they don’t belong”

>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Citizen's_arrest#United_States

> Georgia just outlawed that practice

Not exactly; they clarified the circumstances under which a citizen's arrest can be made[0], "including shopkeepers who witness shoplifters and restaurant owners and employees who witness 'dine and dash' customers."

[0] https://www.npr.org/2021/05/11/995835333/in-ahmaud-arberys-n...

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