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After a Legal Fight, Oberlin Says It Will Pay $36.59M to a Local Bakery

nytimes.com

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Re: After a Legal Fight, Oberlin Says It Will Pay $36.59M to a Local Bakery

#171

Post by sofixa »

spaetzleesser wrote: post #60
kevin_thibedeau wrote: post #43

> Carmen Twillie Ambar: archaic chase-and-detain policy regarding suspected shoplifters was the catalyst for the protests. If you witness a crime you can arrest the criminal. It's basic civics. Something you might find about in an institution of higher learning. Don't know if they have one of those in Oberlin.

Statements like “archaic chase-and-detain policy regarding suspected shoplifters was the catalyst for the protests” is why a lot of people think the left has lost their collective minds. They are making perpetrators into victims and blame the real victims for any bad consequences.

I think (I'm pretty far away from all of this so this is just my impression) the point of these people, often poorly made and sometimes exaggerated, is that petty crimes (especially in a world where everyone is insured anyways so the actual damage is minimal) are not worth ruining human lives over. The American justice system is atrocious, with for profit prisons and extremely high recidivism rates, not to mention racial bias at many levels. Is it worth it to throw away a human life in that black whole over a bottle of wine?

In abstract both arguments (strict enforcement of all laws; and that the system's results are inhumane so lesser laws should be ignored) make surface level sense. A middle ground sounds best (some laws are loosened, leniency is used on first offenses, prison system reform to rehabilitate instead of punish, etc.).

Re: After a Legal Fight, Oberlin Says It Will Pay $36.59M to a Local Bakery

#172

Post by scarface74 »

happyopossum wrote: post #98
scarface74 wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So let’s say that I was going 80 miles per hour in a 55. I stopped at the gas station and you tried to detain me when I got out of the car. Let’s also say I have a licensed firearm. Also let’s say it was caught on camera that I was minding my business pumping my gas when you tried to detain me. How do you think that’s going to end up both right then and in a court of law? This is completely hypothetical, I don’t own…

Driving 80 in a 55 isn’t an arrestable offense, so a Citizens Arrest wouldn’t really be appropriate would it?

Let’s say 85 in a 55 then that could qualify as reckless driving.

Re: After a Legal Fight, Oberlin Says It Will Pay $36.59M to a Local Bakery

#173

Post by [deleted] »

sofixa wrote: post #171
spaetzleesser wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Statements like “archaic chase-and-detain policy regarding suspected shoplifters was the catalyst for the protests” is why a lot of people think the left has lost their collective minds. They are making perpetrators into victims and blame the real victims for any bad consequences.

I think (I'm pretty far away from all of this so this is just my impression) the point of these people, often poorly made and sometimes exaggerated, is that petty crimes (especially in a world where everyone is insured anyways so the actual damage is minimal) are not worth ruining human lives over. The American justice system is atrocious, with for profit prisons and extremely high recidivism rates, not to mention ra…

[deleted]

Re: After a Legal Fight, Oberlin Says It Will Pay $36.59M to a Local Bakery

#174

Post by the_third_wave »

alsaaro wrote: post #158
crackercrews wrote: post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"local speech codes" = not slandering? Pretty sure that applies everywhere.

Who speaks for Oberlin, how can a college slander? "local speech codes" = whatever offends the sensibilities of small town Ohioans.

Seeing how as...

1: speech is the primary weapon of the identity-obsessed ideologues who are behind this whole debacle

2: those same ideologues claim that speech is violence, silence is violence

3: a simple refusal to use a made-up term - the can of worms called pronouns is a good example - can lead to loss of employment, imprisonment (now in Canada and Ireland, possibly elsewhere)

4: the 'speech codes' imposed by these ideologues is a constantly moving target with the above named consequences for violations of those codes

...it is clear that the ideologues in control of Oberlin have fallen on their own sword.

Live by the sword, die by the sword.

Will they learn anything from this debacle? No, probably not, they'll just chalk it up as another instance of systemic racism by the patriarchy or some such nonsense.

The solution would be to take control away from these ideologues but this is up to whatever institutions hold the reins of this college, the donors, alumni etc. If they do not take action the college will sink deeper and deeper into the bottomless pit of ideological strife where the scientific method and reason are abandoned for ideological zeal.

Re: After a Legal Fight, Oberlin Says It Will Pay $36.59M to a Local Bakery

#176

Post by skissane »

SpelingBeeChamp wrote: post #160
etempleton wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Almost all endowment money is restricted, meaning it is earmarked for a specific purpose by donors. They can’t just pay out of the endowment. They would have to pay out of their operating revenue, which is probably not a reality because that is budgeted to the dollar. So my guess is insurance may have paid the bill, but Oberlin will pay over time in the form of high premiums or something else. The biggest punishment…

> Almost all endowment money is restricted, meaning it is earmarked for a specific purpose by donors. They can’t just pay out of the endowment. I doubt that distinction protects the funds from a judgment creditor. The endowment money belongs to the university. Even though the university can only spend it in a certain way, that is an internal matter between the university and its donors. If the university did not have…

> Even though the university can only spend it in a certain way, that is an internal matter between the university and its donors.

An earmarked donation may legally constitute a trust. If an asset forms part of a trust, the university can only spend it in accordance with the terms of the trust, unless they have permission of a court to vary them (the cy-près doctrine). Creditors generally can’t claim assets held as part of a trust, unless the debt/tort/etc has some direct connection to the trust

Re: After a Legal Fight, Oberlin Says It Will Pay $36.59M to a Local Bakery

#178

Post by rayiner »

remarkEon wrote: post #152
rayiner wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When someone points out a problem with healthcare in America, others always chime in with “we should have socialized healthcare like Sweden.” This is in the same thing, except the premise is that maybe Saudi Arabia and other Sharia law countries are on to something. The affluent, privileged Oberlin students profiled in the article don’t even feel shame about stealing from local small businesses. That suggests not onl…

I (mostly) find myself agreeing with you on this website, and I see what point you're making by referencing healthcare, but that's not at all relevant. To steelman your argument, you're concerned about proliferation of, essentially, tomfoolery and pilferage amongst the young. Because of changing or weakening of cultural norms, or because of some other reason (maybe poverty or class divides or some such explanation).…

I think that stealing and cheating—by people who don’t face acute need—is a profound moral defect. In the same way that people saying “boys will be boys” when applied to quite horrible conduct says something bad about our society, normalizing theft as youthful hijinks says something bad. (Not directed at you, I’m aware most Americans anymore just don’t think it’s that big of a deal.)

You have a point about abundance changing the balance compared to earlier eras. I’ll have to think about that.

Re: After a Legal Fight, Oberlin Says It Will Pay $36.59M to a Local Bakery

#179

Post by rayiner »

tptacek wrote: post #145
rayiner wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When someone points out a problem with healthcare in America, others always chime in with “we should have socialized healthcare like Sweden.” This is in the same thing, except the premise is that maybe Saudi Arabia and other Sharia law countries are on to something. The affluent, privileged Oberlin students profiled in the article don’t even feel shame about stealing from local small businesses. That suggests not onl…

When people make stupid comments in the other ideological direction, I flag them too. This stuff is beneath you --- or, it used to be.

It’s “stupid” to suggest that hundreds of millions of other people might have a point in how they’ve structured their laws?

Are you just upset because you think corporal punishment for theft should be outside the Overton window and you assume I agree and am just being flippant? (And I’m not sure what the “ideological direction” here is. I’m pretty sure right wing people don’t think sharia gets anything right.)

Re: After a Legal Fight, Oberlin Says It Will Pay $36.59M to a Local Bakery

#180

Post by scarab92 »

happyopossum wrote: post #89

> it said that “with careful financial planning,” including insurance, it could be paid “without impacting our academic and student experience.” Oberlin has a robust endowment of nearly $1 billion So insurance is gonna pony up for them, they won’t have to touch their BILLION dollars, the my don’t have to apologize, and aren’t admitting any wrongdoing. At least the Gibson family will get something out of it. Not sure…

At a guess, "with careful financial planning" means after negotiation our insurers, we agreed to pay increased premiums sufficient to reimburse the insurer for damages paid, allowing us to announce that the endowment is untouched and avoiding another lawsuit over whether our behaviour was covered by our insurance policy or not.
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